Defending the Indefensible
The White House has joined the right wing chorus attempting to minimize torture
he White House said a senator’s comparison of American interrogators at Guantanamo Bay to Nazis, Soviet gulags and Khmer Rouge leader Pol Pot was reprehensible and a disservice to those serving in the military.
White House press secretary Scott McClellan said it is “beyond belief” that Illinois Sen. Dick Durbin would compare treatment of dangerous enemy combatants at Guantanamo Bay to the death of millions of innocent people by oppressive regimes.
First, lets see what Durbin actually said:
“If I read this to you and did not tell you that it was an FBI agent describing what Americans had done to prisoners in their control, you would most certainly believe this must have been done by Nazis, Soviets in their gulags, or some mad regime – Pol Pot or others – that had no concern for human beings,” Durbin said.
And now, a quick quiz: which of the following is an acceptable way for American soldiers to act. This:
On a couple of occasions, I entered interview rooms to find a detainee chained hand and foot in a fetal position to the floor, with no chair, food or water. Most times they urinated or defecated on themselves, and had been left there for 18-24 hours or more. On one occasion, the air conditioning had been turned down so far and the temperature was so cold in the room, that the barefooted detainee was shaking with cold….On another occasion, the [air conditioner] had been turned off, making the temperature in the unventilated room well over 100 degrees. The detainee was almost unconscious on the floor, with a pile of hair next to him. He had apparently been literally pulling his hair out throughout the night.
or this:
In this “kennel” there was neither ventilation nor a window, and the prisoners’ body heat and breathing raised the temperature to 40 or 45 degrees Centigrade (104 to 113 degrees Fahrenheit) — and everyone sat there in undershorts . . . They sat like that for weeks at a time, and were given neither fresh air nor water — except for gruel and tea in the mornings.
Have an answer? It’s a trick question: neither example is acceptable. If you must know, the first is a report from FBI agents about Gitmo, the second is an account of a Soviet prison. In both cases, the people involved behaved like monsters. And if you thought otherwise, if you tried to split hairs and parse out exactly the minute difference in outrageousness, then God have mercy on your soul.
But George Bush and too many on the right don’t seem to see that. Their response is only to lie and say that Durbin attacked the troops. Durbin did no such thing. Durbin rightfully criticized the Administration for allowing troops to behave in such a monstrous manner. Americans are not demi-gods, perfect in thought and action. Americans lynched black, stole lands from Native Americans and committed atrocities like Mai Lai. But the principle that America was founded on — no man above the law — worked to check the worst abuses that human being could commit, and worked to make sure that decent people would recognize monstrosities when they saw them.
But the Bush Administration and its defenders apparently cannot see monstrosity in front of it. It cannot recognize that chaining a person to the floor in a fetal position until they urinate and defecate on themselves is a tactic worthy of contempt, not of defending. Apparently, they consider themselves above the law, and treat evidence of their failures as opportunities to compound those failures.
Durbin told the truth: those who would order, allow, and conduct the torture the FBI dictated have behaved as monsters. The people attacking Durbin seem to have forgotten that “well, we are still better than Stalin” is not a defense, it is a condemnation.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but i’m not seeing . I sit in the sauna at work that’s 140 degrees for an hour, for kicks. So 113 ain’t that bad. Thats weak. And no one needs information from me to save the lives of Americans. “Almost unconcious”? Oh the horror! He may have been, just waking up? Just about to go to sleep? Would that qualify as “Almost unconcious”?
So this guy is in a room for 18-24 hours, and it is either really hot or so extremely cold that he is shivering! Wow, now I see why you are mad. How about the seclusion that rowdy prisoners get in american prisons, where they can be kept there for weeks. At the Broome County MINIMAL Security prison, they can be put in seclusion, (I’m not sure if they have thermostats in the rooms like these poor gitmo suspects apparantly should have) for up to a week at a time.
I see a strategy here, that works through controlling the media (trust me, liberals do) (que whining about Rush Limbaugh and Fox News, because Rush Limbaugh claims to be an objective reporter). You can make up anything you want, and the people who don’t follow the news closely will assume its true, and that theres legitimacy to the statement.
So when you lie about enough, the people who flip through the news and see “Torture at Gitmo!” will believe this, even those these shmucks are 1000 times better off then they were when they were “free” in Afghanistan.
Referring to these hilarious examples of non as indefensible is bizarre at best, disturbing at worst.
Brian, you’ve just forfeited your right to scream that we nuke the next country that treats American POWs in that fashion…. And some enemy of ours will, inevitably, now that we’ve let the worms out of that can.
“I sit in the sauna at work that’s 140 degrees for an hour, for kicks. So 113 ain’t that bad. ”
It appears the dittohead is unaware that he just endorsed the climate control system in Stalin’s interrogations prisons.
You think that the treatment Durbin brought up is bad? Check this out.
http://www.law.uchicago.edu/news/snyder_prison.html
Kevin, you’ve missed the point. Prisoners at Gitmo are there because they are accused terrorists. Nazi prisoners were innocents! Even if Durbin were correct about similar conditions, the comparison is obviously used to paint American soldiers as barbarians and Gitmo prisoners as innocents. Durbin should be ashamed of himself!
In addition, treatment at Gitmo should not be like the local Four Seasons. Interrogation is a legitimate method to gather information, and part of this involves exposing prisoners to subpar conditions for extended periods. Giving prisoners a daily paper and slippers will not help America gather important information for defending its own.
One more thing (attempting to introduce a little levity): Gitmo prisoners might welcome the 100+ degree temperatures since today’s (06/17/2005) temperature in Baghdad is 113 degrees: http://www.wunderground.com/global/stations/40650.html
It’s hard to handle the humanity of air conditioning when you may be used to such high temperatures…
While I find the treatment of these folks lacking, it doesn’t particuarly get me fired up (as opposed to allegations of torture, which would fire me up). The treatment seems to be in line with what I would expect from a military prison that has interrogation as a goal. It is not even comparable to nazis, polpot, gulags, etc.
Uncle:
Your “not even comparable” statement seems to completely ignore the two excerpts given above — one from Gitmo, and one from an actual Soviet Gulag — which read virtually identically.
When are we going to get beyond the whole “at least we’re not as bad as the Nazis” defense, anyway?
And what we’re doing may not be torture in the sense of actually beating people up, but I’d bet dollars to donuts that it meets the Geneva Convention’s defintion of torture. But I keep forgetting, we’re above that law.
Apparently, if it’s not something I saw once in a “Wizard of Id” cartoon, it’s not torture…
The difference between the gulag is that ultimately in gulags between 15-30 million people were killed. That is a huge difference, which is what durbin was getting at (not enduring warm temperatures, food deprivation, etc.)
And it’s not a ‘at least we’re not nazis’ defense it’s a ‘there is a difference between this and slave labor that will lead to the deaths of millions of people’ difference.
And I am not convinced that these actions are defensible in anyway but durbin pulling a Godwin was way off base.
“durbin pulling a Godwin was way off base.”
Actually, he didn’t. What he said is that if you didn’t know who committed the acts described by that FBI agent, you might think thhey had been committed by a Nazi or Soviet or Khmer Rouge torturer.
And given that Brian up there apparently can’t tell the difference between Gitmo and Gulag — “So 113 ain’t that bad” — it appears Durbin is right.
Actually, he did:
“As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one”
That statement is a comparison.
Uncle:
I think you’re reading more into Durbin’s statement than is there. He never said that Gitmo was every bit as bad as (say) a Gulag. What he said is that the treatment of prisoners the FBI found at Gitmo was similar to things done at a Gulag, and this is absolutely true. The Gulag may also have done worse things, but that in no way excuses the severe abuse (since you object to the term “torture”) that we’ve been guilty of.
And this only serves to distract us anyway. If people on the right spent anywhere near as much time complaining about the abuse itself as they do complaining about what they perceive as exaggerated descriptions of the abuse, there wouldn’t be anything for anyone to complain about because the problem would be solved.
Instead, the right chooses to split hairs over whether it’s “torture” or “abuse” or just “frat-boy pranks,” all the while ignoring the actual problem.
“Instead, the right chooses to split hairs over whether it’s “torture” or “abuse” or just “frat-boy pranks,” ”
Well, when you’re accused of being nazis, etc., you kind of have to prove you’re not.
Thus conveniently allowing you to sidestep the actual problem. You know, it would go a lot farther if, in addition to whining about being compared to bad people, the administration actually stopped acting like bad people, even if they’re not acting as bad as some others have in the past.
And nobody accused anyone of being a Nazi here.
Billmon,
Are you kidding? Are your comments supposed to be funny? Are they sarcasm?
“It appears the dittohead is unaware that he just endorsed the climate control system in Stalin’s interrogations prisons. ”
I clearly endorsed the climate control system in Stalkin’s interrogation prisons. I wonder why I was ‘unaware’ that I did this? Maybe because I didn’t dream anyone would be so idiotic as yourself.
To say that 113 degrees is not that bad (see the current temp in Baghdad, courtesy Wacko) and that 140 is hot, but not either, is to hardly endorse anything about a Soviet Gulag. There are two points you are missing here, when you also say
“And given that Brian up there apparently can’t tell the difference between Gitmo and Gulag – “So 113 ain’t that bad” – it appears Durbin is right.”
A: I’m referring specifically to the temperature of 113 degrees being far from . Yes, Probably at some point in time, the temp in any given Soviet Gulag was up to 113. Are you seriously inferring that I can’t tell the difference between them?
The temperature in a Nazi Concentration camp was probably 70 degrees at some time, and thats also the temp in my house right now. I say 70 isn’t that bad. In fact, its quite nice. By your cute logic, I can’t tell the difference between my house and a Nazi Camp right now!
B: As far as an example for of a Soviet Gulag, the “Kennel” example was pretty weak. There was , but the spec’s of the temperature in that paragraph aren’t it. Are you naiive enough to think thats what the Gulags consisted of? A couple of days at 113 degree’s? That must be a Gulag in your mind. 113 degrees. Millions died, it was quite a bit worse then that.
But what do I know? I can’t even tell the difference! Do you think Soviet victims were served Orange Cooked Chicken, Rice, and desert? Do you think (if they were muslim, use as example of treatment, not for cultural comparison) they would have been given surgical masks to hold their Koran and told which way mecca was, along with breaks 5 times a day to pray to it?
You know, I never understood Michael Savage when he ranted on about how Liberals hate America, and always blame it first. It sounded too stupid, too simple. But if you seriously, this goes for Kevin etc., think the luxury that these Gitmo suspects (compared to their normal lives) live in is comparable, or even equivelent to a Soviet Gulag, or Nazi Deathcamp, blind hatred of America is the only reasoning that makes sense. I’m not trying to be obnoxious, I’m really curious.
“Instead, the right chooses to split hairs over whether it’s “torture” or “abuse” or just “frat-boy pranks,” all the while ignoring the actual problem.”
Um, please clarify, what actual problem? The slighltly irritating temperatures? Thats all you have right now. Oh, I guess I’m just “Splitting Hairs”. Sounds more like this suspect was splittling hairs, as evident by the pile next to him. The horror! Is the REAL problem that they do not have thermostats? Would you be happy then? Or should they be restrained from pulling their hair out by being put in strait jackets? That would be pretty cruel though! Maybe they should just be given brooms to sweet up the hair they “Pull out” (maybe he just had a haircut). Then we could all sing kum ba yah together. Only a liberal would feel sympathy for a gitmo suspect who had pulled his hair out.
Kevin,
Even if you me in your rebuttal coming soon, admit the line about the liberal sympathy was pretty good.
Ok, let’s cut to the chase. I won’t even compare Gitmo to the Nazis or Stalin. But, let’s compare Gitmo to North Viet Nam. Let’s see how they treated prisoners. They beat up prisoners who were tied up. They left prisoners in baren cells with no food or water. They “interogated” prisoners to find out about their units and coming actions, and when they didn’t get their answers, they beat the prisoner some more. Does THIS sound more like what is goin on in Gitmo???
I served 20 years in the service, and some of that was during Viet Nam. Many of my friends were killed over there, and some were captured and put through the hell of their POW camps. Everything I have read about what is going on in Gitmo, including things from places like Fox News sounds an awful lot like the POW camps in North Viet Nam. I guess we can figure that the right learned its lessons very over there. I don’t care how you spin what is going on in Gitmo. It is totally repugnant to anyone with ANY human decency. When I was in the service we were taught that you do NOT mistreat prisoners. There was no distinction between what kind of prisoner we were talking about. It is against the Uniform Code of Military Justice to mistreat ANY prisoner. Anyone who is involved with this action MUST be punished and sent to prison themselves.
As a father with a son and a son-in-law both serving in Iraq, if this in the only way our brilliant leaders can get information, then I don’t want the information, and neither do my boys. We are supposed to be a nation of laws. We are supposed to be a nation of decency. For years we have prided ourselves on the “being a becon of democracy”. It is time for the KKKers to get thrown out of office. It is time for this childish and brutal behavior to STOP!!
Even if this action got us information, which it does not, it is still horendous. Anyone who condones such behavior dare not call themselves Americans, dare not call themselves humans, dare not call themselves Christians. Let’s take a good look at what our wonderful president is saying. Save the unborn by banning abortion. Save the braindead by not taking away the feeding tube. Make sure we pray before everything we do. Follow God’s will and be good people. BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF ANYONE WE HAVE IN PRISON BECAUSE WE DON’T LIKE THEIR ANSWERS. And you think that is the way it should be?? Take a look in the dictionary under hypocracy and you’ll find a picuture of George W. Bush.
Mark R,
Okay, I’m going to write this assuming you really are a parent and the father of kids in Iraq, and that’s not as preposterous as everything else you said.
“Does THIS sound more like what is goin on in Gitmo???”
For the third time in this idiotic circular argument, NO! No no no no no! No that does not sounds like anything coming out of Gitmo. Arguing with you whiners about Gitmo is as productive as yelling at a rocking chair. The only response I’ve gotten so for in my request for a real example has either been “The North Vietnamese!” Or a new one from you “Bush is in the Klan!”.
I’m sorry, you speak of Americans currently beating people in prison. Did you, how do I say this nicely, blatantly make that up? You’ve been hearing reports on Fox News about people being BEATEN? Really, thats news here. You would have thought Kevin would have used that as an example of , instead of the warm but oh so nice temperatures. I’m calling your bluff right here. Either you are lying or just really really confused. You have absolutely no examples of anyone being beaten there. Just making stuff up to prove a point doesn’t strengthen your argument. Gitmo’s are not allowed to be touched by their guards in interrogation. They are also not even allowed to be yelled at in the ear. Look that up for yourself if you don’t believe me.
No food or water in cells? Nope, that doesn’t sound like Gitmo. Give me an example of food or water being withheld. Oh that’s right, you don’t have any. Just refer to these ominous “reports” you hear on Fox News. If you want to hear about their food, listen to the reports given by Republican Rep’s and Senators. They get food better then I do at College, in fact, its a lot better.
Any examples of the starvation of the prisoners? Oh that’s right, you just self righteously make up things!
“I don’t care how you spin what is going on in Gitmo. ”
What am I spinning? There is no ! Is that the way you respond to me correctly saying there is no , by making up wild examples and saying “don’t start spinning this!”
How do you win an argument against that kind of logic?
“I guess we can figure that the right learned its lessons very over there.”
Ahh jokes on the right, huh! Isn’t that great! You say that so smugly! We learned “OUR” lesson over their. The right wing Lyndon B Johnson started that war, and the left wing Nixon ended it.
“then I don’t want the information, and neither do my boys”
First of all, if raising the temp to a slightly irritating degree ( the real example we’ve seen so far ) is going too far for information that will save lives for you, you need help. I seriously doubt your boys agree with you. I got a brother serving, and you sure as heck do not speak for him, or 99 percent of military.
Oh, its time for the Klanners to get thrown out of office now? Nice, that was cute. It really added to your argument.
“It is time for this childish and brutal behavior to STOP!!”
The only thing childish here is your reasoning. Seriously, take a breath. That was probably the most unjustified online yelling I”ve ever read. STOP THE ! TURN ON THE AIR CONDIDTIONING!
“Anyone who condones such behavior dare not call themselves Americans, dare not call themselves humans, dare not call themselves Christians.”
A. Once again repeat what exactly is the reprehensible behavior please.
B. I DARE (THE HORROR!) to call myself both an American and a Christian, even though I condone the slightly irritating (I’m sick of writing this line, but it’s your fault for being so ignorant) Temp in Gitmo. Call me crazy. The whole thing that Bush apparantly says about hitting people in jail is just nonsensical. I don’t really know what to say to that. Are you really a conservative who writing in satire? If so, I feel like a moron for writing this much in response.
Picture of Bush under hypocracy in the dictionary?
Save my weakened faith in humanity and tell me this is satire.
Brian
MarkR is my father and those men are my brother and my brother-in-law. Consider this your last warning: impugn them or my father again and you are gone.
You want examples of no food and water? THEN READ THE POST YOU IDIOT:
The FBI itself has said its agents witnessed beatings and other abuse:
No, either retract your support of the procedures at Gitmo, apologize for calling people who knew the truth liars, or stand before the word a pathetic excuse for a human being willing to approve of torture — a person who deosn’t know shit about being an American or a Christian.
I apologize,
The personal insults were uncalled for, childish, and quite wrong. In fairness, it came in the context of President Bush being called a Ku Klux Klanner. But, I really am sorry, and stand completely corrected about rudely questioning the legitimacy of person. It won’t happen again.
Obscenity
What is going on? Why is everyone playing the Nazi card? Some Dem did it a couple of months ago, then Sen. Santorum played it during the filibuster debate, now Sen. Durbin plays it regarding Gitmo.
Brian,
No, I am not a conservative writing in satire. Sorry you thought I was yelling, I wasn’t except the parts I made bold. I glad that you disagree with me. Disagreement is what our country is all about. However, please take a little advice. Anyone who only reads or watches news media from one standpoint isn’t getting the whole picture. It takes more information than one side of an issue to see it clearly. I make a serious attempt to get information from many sources with different political slants.
I did say it is time to get the KKKers out of office. I did not name any names or say that Bush is a member. But, actions talk a lot louder than words. There have been accusations about what is going on in Gitmo for some time now. the amazing thing is that the administrations doesn’t really deny these reports, only say they are exagerated. When Durbin said that the actions there compared to the Nazis and the Gulags, the administration, in there response, did not say the actions were not taking place. They merely said they shouldn’t be compared to the Nazis and Gulags. As they say, where there’s smoke there is fire. So, if the administration does not deny the allegations, work to prove the allegations are false, then it is reasonable for intelligent people to make the link that they are taking place. If that is the case, and the administration knows about it and does nothing, then what would you call it?
I’m sorry, but the Bush administration and their followers, in my opinoin, practice a very sick form of selective christianity. The principles and teachings of christianity are not meant only for our friends. The true measure of christianity is how we treat our enemies. From all of the reports, and lack of provable denial from the administration, we are not treating our enemies in a christian manner. That is selective practice. And yes, selective practice is hypocracy. No matter how you try to spin it.
Whoever “Kevin” is, is the biggest hypocrite I have heard today.