More on IVF
Jun 17
A web site called Right Wing Religious Wacko tries to disassemble (in the non-Bush meaning) my argument tying the ethics of in-vitro ferilization to embryonic stem cell research. I was just going to comment directly on his web site, however it wouldn’t allow me to comment (complained that I needed to be logged in, but didn’t give me a way to actually log in), so I’ll post his arguments and my responses here. For context, first read his whole argument and then come back here for my responses.
“Destruction” and “natural selection” are not equivalent concepts.
No, they’re not, but once the embryos have been artificially created, appeals to anything “natural” from this point forward are invalid. With actual intercourse, you cannot directly control how many eggs get fertilized, much less whether or not they implant. With IVF, you have direct control over most of those factors. Apples and oranges.
I understand the point that people who believe IVF is morally permissible go into the procedure knowing that some of the harvested and outside-the-womb-combined eggs and sperm may not become viable.
That’s not what I’m talking about. I’m talking about viable “extra” embryos that never actually get implanted. You know, the frozen ones; the ones that ESC research folks want to use.
So, does this mean that no one should try to conceive naturally, because persons may knowingly or unknowingly be destroying (through natural selection) a newly fertilized embryo? Come on.
I have never argued this, but this isn’t a problem for someone who supports ESC research (like myself) or for someone who opposes both IVF and ESC research; it’s a problem for someone who supports IVF but opposes ESC research. That’s where the ethical inconsistency lies.
To me, an embryo that is created and never implants is not a human “life,” and that is true irrespective of whether the embryo was created naturally or unnaturally, and whether the cause of the failed implantation was natural or unnatural.
But if you argue that life begins at conception (as the most die-hard among the pro-life crowd often do), then you have to come to the realization that better than 75% of “pregnancies” end in miscarriage (through nothing more than “God’s will,” I might add), and that IVF procedures needlessly and artificially increase that number.
There are marked ethical and moral differences between IVF procedures and embryonic stem cell research. The goal of IVF is to create life. The harvesting procedure might result in embryos that die through natural selection, but the intent is for all of them to be viable.
This sounds an awful lot like “the ends justify the means” to me. I have at least one Christian friend who vehemently argues against such logic. The road to hell is paved with good intentions, as they say.
I believe that the ethical issue with this procedure has nothing to do with placing embryos into the patient (knowing some might die), but what to do with the possibility of having extra embryos that cannot be used in the initial implantation procedure (due to the ethics of not implanting too many for the safety of the patient).
And therein lies the rub. No current IVF method that I’m aware of avoids this “extra embryo” problem. And even if every created embryo is initially implanted, you still wind up with a higher embryonic destruction rate than by natural causes, because of the very nature of IVF’s “carpet bombing” approach.
Embryonic stem cell research, however, promotes life only by first destroying life (or a potential life).
At least as currently proposed, it only “destroys life” that was already going to be destroyed anyway because of someone with your high-minded “trying to create life” goals.
I patently reject your attempt to separate these two issues. They would remain very much tightly coupled, even if your pie-in-the-sky vision of how IVF ought to work mirrored reality (which it doesn’t).
We can talk about IVF how it ought to be, but that’s a separate issue. What’s before us is IVF as it exists now.
#1 by Wacko! at June 17th, 2005
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TGirsch:
Sorry about the mandatory login feature. It was turned on by default, so I’ve since “turned it off.”
I patently reject your coupling of the two issues. You simply have not provided a strong enough argument. But I suppose we can agree to disagree. I might have to sit down to respond to your rebuttal with due diligence, but let me first address your “ends justify the means” accusation. My comparison between natural intercourse and IVF and the tendency for some fertilizations (ether way) to become nonviable means that I am not some fanatical Christian who believes that “God’s will” forbides any use of medical science. On the contrary, should I wait for IVF procedures to have a 100% success rate for viable embryos or can I be a “wacko” Christian who prefers to leave it up to “God’s will” to play His part in determining viability?
The difference between IVF and ESC research is that 100% of the embryos used for research are “destroyed.”
I will, however, agree with you regarding one aspect of the IVF procedure. An IVF procedure involves using all “viable” eggs and all “viable” sperm to see how many “viable” embryos can result. I am concerned about this haphazard approach because there can be the tendency to have more embryos than what the couple wants or needs. Since enough IVF procedures have been conductred at this time, I would vote for fertility folks to only attempt to fertilize a limited number of eggs.
I disagree with you when you say “No current IVF method that I’m aware of avoids this “extra embryo” problem.” The reality is that many persons who undergo IVF procedures may or may not have extra viable embryos. I’ve known people in both situations. However, religious fanatics such as myself (sarcasm) would either use these embryos for a later procedure or donate them to a needful couple. Again, how is this destruction, or are we back to the natural selection process that you argue against?
#2 by Liberal Chris at June 17th, 2005
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There are not enough couples interested in donated embryos to use all the fertilized embryos created through IVF procedures. The fact that there are some people who undergo IVF procedures whose doing so does not leave unused embryos is thus irrelevant to the moral problem. In the real world, there are frozen embryos as a result of IVF that are not and never will be implanted and that will be destroyed. If you honestly oppose using these embryos in research, you should oppose the procedure that leads inevitably to the existence of these surplus embryos.
#3 by tgirsch at June 17th, 2005
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Wacko:
But the key element you’re ignoring is that 100% off them already exist and 100% of them are going to be destroyed anyway. You almost seem to be arguing that there’s nothing immoral about destroying these embryos unless we use them for research. The moral failing, if there is one, must lie with whoever is responsible for the fact that these embryos will be destroyed; and that lies with the people who created them in the first place.
All the proponents of ESC research are saying is that since the embryos already exist anyway, and are already going to be destroyed anyway, let’s get some additional benefit from them by using them for research. If it’s wrong to destroy the embryos, it’s wrong to do so whether or not any reseaarch is performed, and that’s why these issues are so tightly coupled.
This may be true, but what I’m saying is that there’s no guarantee that there won’t be extras, and I’m guessing the cases where there are extras are at least as common as where there aren’t. I wasn’t saying that all couples who try IVF are going to have excess embryos; I was saying that current IVF procedures don’t guarantee that there won’t be, which means that on the whole there will always be excess embryos, even if this couple or that doesn’t wind up with extras.
Meanwhile, after writing all this, I see that Liberal Chris has already said pretty much everything I did, except far more succinctly.
#4 by tgirsch at June 17th, 2005
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I should point out that unlike many ESC research proponents, I would go one step further. I would actually allow creating embryos (by cloning or by new fertilizations) specifically for ESC research. But I can certainly understand why others would be uncomfortable with that, and thus I would accept a ban on doing so. IVF is already producing enough surplus anyway.
The bottom line is still that it’s morally inconsistent to support IVF while opposing ESC research (assuming you think the embryo destruction is the moral failing here). IVF destroys more embryos than ESC research does, and that’s not going to change any time soon.
#5 by Wacko! at June 17th, 2005
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Thanks for the civil banter. To continue, you said “The moral failing, if there is one, must lie with whoever is responsible for the fact that these embryos will be destroyed; and that lies with the people who created them in the first place.”
I would agree with you. As a pro-lifer who argues for the life of the unborn, I would say to the people who enter a sexual relationship that you were pro-choice when you decided to have sex - therefore, also choose life if pregnancy occurs.
Similarly, I would argue that persons who choose to undergo IVF should also accept responsibility for any resulting viable embryos. I would agree with you that if there is danger of a surplus that will never be used, then something must change - including more regulated policies for harvesting and implantation procedures.
I just happen to not buy into the argument that “since the embryos already exist anyway, and are already going to be destroyed anyway, let’s get some additional benefit from them by using them for research.” As genetic techniques become more and more sophisticated where would you draw the proverbial line in the sand? You’ve already mentioned that you’d be willing to essentially farm cloned embryos which I find appalling. What if it was determined that the best chance for helping others only came from embryos that were near full-term? Would you have a problem if I cloned your child, had him or her come close to full term, and then use this child for research purposes? And then clone this child yet again for the same purpose? You see, it becomes such a slippery slope.
Why the need to use embryonic stem cells? Is using adult stem cells proven to be less likely to determine similar results? Is there a quantifiable answer to the difference in usefulness?
#6 by tgirsch at June 18th, 2005
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Wacko:
But see, you’ve already conceded the point. Whether or not we should be doing research on these embryos is at worst a secondary moral concern. The primary concern is the creation of doomed excess embryos in the first place, and that lies entirely with IVF. Yet stem cell research gets all the headlines, and nobody prominently complains about IVF.
ESC research could be forever banned today, and this wouldn’t save the life of a single, solitary embryo. Not one. So why all the hoopla about the research, and none about the root problem, IVF? This is what I’ve been arguing all along (dating back to when Joe first started commenting on it.
So wouldn’t it make much more sense to focus all the attention on the root problem? Wouldn’t it make more sense to push for the reform or banning of IVF? If the moral issue were all that was at stake here, of course it would.
But you see, there’s more to it than that. Any politician coming out publicly against fertility services (like IVF) is committing political suicide. They realize that their position is inconsistent, but they can’t politically afford to take a consistent one (and frankly, I don’t think they even want to), so they have to make excuses and grandstand with snowflakes, etc.
Now I don’t think that most people have some deep, dark motive here, or are even being intentionally duplicitous. However, it seems to me that for most who oppose ESC research, something feels “wrong” about destroying embryos for research, but at the same time, they’re okay with destroying some in an effort to get pregnant. They must have the impression, then, that the moral failing lies somewhere other than with the destruction of the embryos, even if they can’t see this or won’t admit it.
That’s why it’s so important to point out these discrepancies and make people think about them, and attempt to explain them. When they see that embryo destruction is dependent not upon ESC research, but on in-vitro fertilization, they’ll have to reconsider their position.
#7 by Wacko! at June 18th, 2005
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Well, I will concede that we must seriously look at the amount of ambryos that are created in an IVF procedure and make decisions about how many should be created in the first place. You bring up a good point that these excess embryos were created in the first place through IVF procedures.
However, I believe that if the proper procedures were in place, this would not pose the moral dilemma you argue. Because many people do not believe that life begins at conception, then most likely, these persons have no problem donating their excess embryos for research. Personally, I know more than one Christian couple who has used IVF and not sacrificed any of their embryos, in terms of the viable ones that could be used.
So, until abortion is outlawed, it might be hard to argue against using this excess embryos for ESC research. However, as a Christian, my issue is less about what to do with the available excess embryos now, it is the bigger picture of how better regulation might prevent these extra embryos.
You bring up good points, TGirsch. Perhaps there should be a moratorium on IVF until proper precautions can take place or technology advances so that the proper number of viable embryos match one to one with those that will be used for implantation…
#8 by tgirsch at June 18th, 2005
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Yeah, and if wishes were horses…
#9 by Faith at March 21st, 2008
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“…And even if every created embryo is initially implanted, you still wind up with a higher embryonic destruction rate than by natural causes,…”
Not necessarily. Say someone who uses IVF and gets 10 embryos. And in the end it results is one viable pregnancy. That would be 9 conceived embryos that didn’t ’survive’ in the attempt to get pregnant. If the woman had ovulated ‘on her own’ and it took a year or more to get pregnant, she could have “destroyed” just as many embryos trying naturally (since conception occurs quite often and fails early on). I don’t get the hang up on this when it is part of reproduction for embryos to not be viable and be “destroyed” regularly as part of the process of reproduction naturally.
#10 by Faith at March 21st, 2008
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ps. In IVF, embryos are transferred back to the uterus, NOT “implanted”. Implantation is the process that is hoped will happen.