Judge Orders Torture Photos Released
Posted by
Kevin
This is a good thing, in the long run:
A federal judge Thursday ordered the release of dozens more pictures of prisoners being abused at Abu Ghraib, rejecting government arguments that the images would provoke terrorists and incite violence against U.S. troops in Iraq.
U.S. District Judge Alvin K. Hellerstein said that terrorists “do not need pretexts for their barbarism'’ and that suppressing the pictures would amount to submitting to blackmail.
“Our nation does not surrender to blackmail, and fear of blackmail is not a legally sufficient argument to prevent us from performing a statutory command. Indeed, the freedoms that we champion are as important to our success in Iraq and Afghanistan as the guns and missiles with which our troops are armed,'’ he said.
Hellerstein ordered the release of 74 pictures and three videotapes from the Abu Ghraib prison, potentially opening the military up to more embarrassment from a scandal that stirred outrage around the world in 2003.
There is a danger here that the photos can stir up even more anti-Americanism and radicalize people who would not have bee radicalized without them. That argument, which the government makes, is not without merit. I do worry about the effect these pictures will have, and the potential for violence they may represent.
But I fear their being kept secret even more. These pictures represent even worse abuses than where shown originally. It is important that the country be made aware of what has been done in our name. By now, its clear that the Administration considered these kinds of humiliations and abuses as a weapon to be used, even if we want to be generous and grant that some people, left without specific guidance, went farther than they should have. The country needs to see the results of those actions, because it needs to understand what has been done. Because without a public accounting, this administration will continue the policies that lead to these atrocities, and the next several years will see a drip-drip-drip of horrors that will serve as a constant source of radicalization the world over. That has to be stopped. And for it to be stopped, the American people have to understand precisely the horror of what has been done. And that understanding requires the release of those photos.
I am sure that we will begin to hear people on the right loudly and vehemently complain that the release is “causing” terrorism and is responsible for this or that attack. There will be some truth to that. Such abuses can only serve to radicalize the Muslim world, and that can only mean more support for terrorists and more terrorism. But the fault will not lie with the people who released the photos or investigated the abuse. The fault will lie with those who either ordered the abuse or created the environment — an environment where the Geneva Convention was dismissed, where White House lawyers wrote memos claiming that torture wasn’t torture and even if it was, the President could order it, where officers looking for clear guidelines could not find them — in which the abuse could flourish. The fault will lie squarely with the Bush Administration. If they had behaved in a decent, just, and civilized manner, the photos would not exist.
Judge: Release Abu Ghraib Photos
Pictures of detainee abuse at Iraq’s Abu Ghraib prison must be released despite government claims th
Trackback 9/30/2005
I think Ward over at Mod-Blog sums up my thoughts when he says:
“The thing that makes those of us
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko, Kevin lost friends on 9/11.
Please don’t buy the right wing spin/poison that people who aren’t on the right don’t care about Americans that hacks like Limbaugh and Coulter like to spew. It is obvious you’re smart enough not to fall for that. It is possible to be rightly outraged at the rape and torture commited by our side without taking away from the anger and horror that 9/11 caused. Come on. You’re better than that, aren’t you?
Comment 9/30/2005
I hardly think that making the photos public will have a huge impact in provoking more anti-Americanism. The damage is already done.
The United States has declared two wars against Iraq and completely destroyed the country and has also killed over one million people not to mention the sanctions and the ongoing bombing in the no-fly zones. As well, the U.S.has bombed the Sudan destroying a pharmaceutical company and has also bombed Lybia three times. Then there is Afghanistan where the U.S. indiscrimately bombed the country hoping to hit Osama. Finally the U.S. strongly supports Israel in its war against the Palestinians to deny them the homeland to which they are legally entitled.
The world has already seen gruesome pictures of prisoners held by the Americans and is aware that the U.S. is holding and torturing a number of innocent people because they might be terrorits or they might have knowledge of terrorists. Do you reaaly think a few more pictures will matter?
Comment 9/30/2005
I’m listening to John McCain right now (on the Tony Snow radio program), and he is very troubled at the choice to release these photos. His argument is that releasing the photos do no good except to enrage insurgents further.
I agree. We know that some soldiers acted horribly. However, I vote that if additional photos are released, then they should simultaneously release additional 9/11 photos.
Dawn, my point is that we beat a dead horse here. Was there the same measure of discussion surrounding 9/11?
Comment 9/30/2005
David once again nails it. If the imperialistic forces of the United States would quit bombing everyone and leave other people alone, there would be peace in this world. Bush loves to torture people and anyone who doesn’t see that is a rightwing lunatic. I wouldn’t be surprised if when a sensible leftwing person of peace moves into the White House (oh, blessed thought!) that we don’t discouver torture chambers in the basement of the White House.
We must run the Jews out of their homeland and give it back to its rightful owners, the Palestinians. Let’s do all we can to support the great warriors against the Jews, especially the homicide bombers.
Thank you David for your continued diligence. You will be greatly rewarded for your compassion for those suffering under the heavy thumb of the neo-Nazis who control our government at this time. Hopefully, beginning in January 2009 things will change.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE! PEOPLE OF THE WORLD UNITE! GET THE U.S. IMPERIAL ARMY OUT OF EVERYWHERE!
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko
First, if you really think that leftists don’t care about 9/11 then go to hell. I lost two people I knew in the towers, and my little brother and brother in law are serving in Iraq. I am not going to be lectured by a supporter of the man who let Bin Laden get away lecture me about what I should and should not do with regards to terrorism and our response to it. I oppose Bush because he is losing the fight agaisnt terrorism, Wacko, and I want to win it.
Second, my anger at 9/11 does not mean I should be incapable of being angry at what this Administration — not just a few soldiers as you claim — has done to our country and our armed forces. Our standards should be much higher than those of the terrorists or Saddam becaue they are monsters and we are not supposed to be. “They do the same” is not an argument, it is the whine of someone who knows that they have done something wrong and are trying to escape responsibility.
Third, McCain is wrong — in the long term, hiding these photos is worse. Becasue, so far, there has been no real attempt to root out the problem. The Congress has not done so, and the American people haven’t demanded that it be done. If we do not root this out of the Armed forces, ti will continue, and the longer it continues, the worse things will become for the country.
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko, was there the same discussion of 9/11?? Where were you? Of course there was. Like Kevin, I find your insinuation that people on the left weren’t as outraged by 9/11 highly offensive. I do not know one single person on the right or left who wasn’t deeply affected that day and for months afterword. I haven’t seen anyone brush off 9/11 as inconsequential, right or left. The accusation that people left of center do not care about 9/11 is baseless, and those who would argue it are only doing so because they don’t have an effective argument. It’s hard to defend the acts of those soldiers and the people in charge who ordered it, so slander the left! It’s cheap, to say the least.
McCain is wrong. The damage those acts have done have already occurred. Iraqis and the rest of the world already know we’ve done those things. We cannot keep the American public in the dark about what its own government is doing because to do so will endanger even more troops than the release of those photos. If more troops are killed after those photos come out, it is because of the acts themselves, NOT the release of the photos. The time for the people in charge to worry about the consequences of their actions was BEFORE they even happened, not when the evidence comes out. If we’re going to be a free society we need to know what our government is up to, and if they’re committing war atrocities we have a right to know that! We have a right to know that.
Comment 9/30/2005
Kevin,
I am sorry for your loss and do not purposefully try to upset you. I am in no way implying that leftists do not care about 9/11…just wondering where your focus might be at times.
I do not see any good coming out of releasing photos. To show that the behavior of some soldiers was REALLY REALLY bad as opposed to the REALLY bad we are all already aware of?
My point by invoking 9/11 is that MANY photos surrounding 9/11 were surpressed out of good taste. It would enrage Americans even more if they were further reminded of the day. So, if we follow the reasoning behind allowing prisoner abuse photos to become public, then I vote for all 9/11-related photos be publically available.
My point is that we need to take a step back and look at our priorities here. Sure, we should be upset at the prisoner abuse, but we should be even more upset about 9/11.
Frankly, releasing those photos I feel skews the picture of all the good America has done. A black eye does not make the whole body worthless. The actions of a few then characterizes our U.S. forces as inhumane terrorists, which I feel is ridiculous.
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko, there is a difference between making certain photos of victims of 9/11 less public out of respect for them and their family members, and deliberately covering up evidence of wrongdoing. Huge difference.
You don’t see any good coming out of releasing those photos? How about having an American public who is aware of the wrongdoing? Nothing but bad can come from a government who hides its questionable actions from its own public. Even if, as you say, nothing good can come of it, it doesn’t change the fact that WE HAVE A RIGHT TO KNOW. I want to know if my country is doing those things. If we’re kept in the dark, it makes it a lot easier for them to get away with it, thus endangering the troops and our own country more and more with their actions. It’s the actions, not the photos. Don’t kid yourself that the rest of the world will remain ignorant if those photos aren’t shown to us.
You wonder where the focus is sometimes? If you do, then I think that’s nothing but a bit of selective memory combined with good old fashioned bias. But, let’s just lower the discussion one bit to the “lefties don’t care about 9/11, about America” level. The left really doesn’t care about 9/11 as much. How does that excuse the Right’s apathy towards the attrocious acts of its own goverment? If you can argue that the left doesn’t focus enough on 9/11 than it can be argued that the right doesn’t care if its own country becomes no better than the evil regime it is fighting.
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko, America becoming a nation that commits war crimes is just as detremintal to the country I love as 9/11. Because BOTH destroy America. Don’t tell me I have to care less about the destruction of the very ideals that make America great as about the attacks on our soil. More Americans will surely die because of those actions you’re telling me I shouldn’t care as much about, whether those damned photos come out or not. I don’t evn need those photos to care, but apparently many do. Too many of us are ignorant about what is happening in Iraq. That has to stop, or it will never end, and more Americans will continue to die. Kindly cut the “leftists aren’t as American” faux jingoistic crap. I do appreciate your participation here, but I will call that BS for what it is.
I’ll add that those actions aren’t a black eye. They’re a cancer. And arguing that the rest of the good America has done makes up for it is like arguing that the healthy parts of the rest of the body make up for the harm the cancer is causing. As long as we aren’t doing anything about that cancer, the healthy parts won’t matter. And ignoring the cancer or remaining in denial about how serious it is and equating it to a black eye does nothing to treat it.
Comment 9/30/2005
Remind me where I said that. I’m not trying to start anything, Dawn. We can civily discuss issues without having a pissing contest or lobbing bombs from either side fo the fence. Let’s sit together at this table we call Democracy and strive to understand each other, even if we disagree. I want you to know I do not intend to try to piss off anyone here - but come here merely to understand differing viewpoints. Perhaps this site might sway me on some issues. Hopefully too persons here are openminded enought to consider my viewpoint as well.
I do agree that America deserves to know, but how many photos will additionally further inform the public and satisfy you? 10, 100, 1000, all of them? Frankly, there’s already a number of abu gharib photos that are etched into my mind and in the mind of many informed Americans. More photos does not equate to reaching the uninformed.
And yes, I do believe these photos may cause more harm to Americans. You see, we can debate about politics and argue about the bias of one news outlet or another. We can even say that Fox or CNN is blatently propogandist in what they portray - but Al Jazeera will show each photo as a slide show on their network in a propogandist fashion. Al Jazeera is sometimes the only network available to some viewers in soem areas, so these photos will be used ONLY for propogandist opportunity.
Comment 9/30/2005
I disagree that the abuse is a “cancer” because these are isolated happenings, not a behavior that is spreading and accepted throughout our armed forces…I like my black eye metaphor better
Comment 9/30/2005
Maybe you like your black eye metaphore better because you aren’t aware of how bad it is? Don’t you want to know? From what I’ve heard, these new photos make the ones already out seem tame by comparison. How are you going to judge whether it’s a black eye or a cancer if you don’t see the evidence?
My comments to you aren’t meant to offend or insult. They’re an attempt to get you to elevate this discourse to the level it deserves. The response to the outrage over these abuses isn’t “But, but…you don’t care/don’t care as much about 9/11!” That is insulting, and does nothing for civil discussion. You may not have used bad words, but it’s just as bad. I could have been a lot worse in my reaction, but I do attempt to remain civil. And as long as you don’t do it again, you’ll be fine
The argument that those photos will cause harm to Americans is easily negated by the fact that keeping them secret will harm *even more*. If Americans continue to support what is going on, thinking as you do that it is only a black eye, because they haven’t seen the truth, then this drags out, and more will die. Not to mention the fact that just because we don’t see them doesn’t mean that the rest of the world remain ignorant.
Comment 9/30/2005
Enough said. This is the crux of our difference of opinion. Other than what happened at the Pentagon, ALMOST EVERY victim of 9/11 were INNOCENT civilians. While I agree that NO HUMAN should receive abusive treatment, you cannot say that the torture of suspected TERRORIST CRIMINALS is “just as detrimental” as torturing persons, who on the whole, are not innocent.
Comment 9/30/2005
excuse me - the last line meant to compare torture with MURDER
Comment 9/30/2005
Dawn: It’s hard to defend the acts of those soldiers and the people in charge who ordered it,
Fred: Who has defended the actions of the soldiers who tortured the prisoners? Who ordered their torture. If you can’t provide evidence then you lie about it.
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko, I’m not ignorant of the fact that those victims on 9/11were innocent. But that doesn’t excuse using that horrific event as a deflection of attention away from the horrific things those soldiers are doing. It is a lame attempt to deflect attention and nothing more, and insinuates that the person you’re arguing with doesn’t understnad that innocent victims were harmed on9/11!!!!!! Just because you aren’t using dirty words doesn’t mean you’re slandering me or my position any less.
Are you saying that the crux of the differnce of our opinion is that you don’t think war crimes diminish America? Is that honestly what you’re saying? Because I don’t think that’s the only thing. I think the the difference between you and me is that I’m perfectly capable of being sufficiently horrified by 9/11 AND horrified by war crimes committed by Americans. And I don’t use one to dismiss, excuse or deflect attention away from the other. Until you can get past that, we can’t even discuss this issue let alone get to the crux of the matter. As long as you keep insisting that I don’t care as much about 9/11 as you do, we cannot civilly discuss this. And I’m NOT the one who keeps attempting to lower the discussion in that manner
Comment 9/30/2005
Judge Orders Release of More Abu Graib Photos
The compelling interest should not be the public’s curiosity, or the ACLU’s twisted agenda, but to protect the lives of Americans on the ground in the middle east.
Trackback 9/30/2005
Dawn:
Perhaps I shouldn’t have used ALL CAPS for emphasis
It comes across as shouting, and I’m certainly not upset or angry. I guess that’s the biggest limitation of this kind of communication - you lose about 90% of its intended meaning.
You implied that the prisoner abuse was just as bad as what happened on 9/11. Perhaps you are not suggesting that, but that’s how I interpreted the quoted text. I undersdtand that both situations horrify you and that one does not limit your feeling towards 9/11.
I simply happen to feel that releasing additional horrific photos will do nothing beneficial. I am on your side in that I am horrified by what happened at Abu Gharib but perhaps not as equally horrified.
Perhaps we should be equally horrified by the abuse of prisoners in our own U.S. jails…just a thought.
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko, why do you feel that maintaining a visible and transparent government isn’t benificial? How is a government that hides what it does a benifit to us? How is cowering in fear of what the enemy might to do us and accepting our government keeping evidence from us out of fear not giving in to the enemy? You’re really okay with the government keeping that from us because you don’t see what we gain? That just amazes me.
If evidence ever comes to light that the level of torture happens in our US prisons, then I will be horrified at that as well. But I think that’s yet another deflection. Another reason to convince yourself that these things aren’t as bad as they seem. I can’t understand how anyone can look at those pictures, the ones that have already been out, and not weep for our country. I don’t understand the depths of denial some are reaching. Do you understand that my horror isn’t just at what those prisoners went through, but at the fact that we did that? We did those things that I always thought the bad guys only did. That America was better than that.
I really wonder how low the government has to sink before some will stop trying to rationalize it and justify it, or at the very least think it isn’t as bad as 9/11, or that 9/11 somehow justifies it. Or using 9/11 as some kind of measuring stick and thinking “At least what we’re doing to other people isn’t as bad as that!” As far as trying to persuade some of my fellow Americans to wake up, I think I give up. I just give up, and tell the rest of the world we’re not all like that, I swear. Some of us are trying to maintain a shred of dignity instead of buring our heads in the sand.
Comment 9/30/2005
Who in the administration has approved of the prisoner abuse in Iraq? All I’ve heard is condemnation of it. What do you know that is evidence that the administration approved the criminal activity at Abu Gharib?
Comment 9/30/2005
Wacko:
I’m late getting to this discussion, but I have a few comments.
First and foremost, I find it supremely ironic that any supporter of our actions in Iraq would accuse anyone else of “losing focus” after 9/11. If Iraq (with no significant pre-war ties to al-Qaeda, and no ties at all to 9/11) doesn’t represent the ultimate loss of focus, I don’t know what does. So it’s pretty rich to have people who strongly support our Iraqi adventures lecture us about having the “wrong priorities” concerning terror and 9/11.
Second, I think to a certain extent you and Dawn are talking past each other. Implicit in your dismissal of the importance of releasing the new abuse photos is the underlying assumption that this was just the actions of a few bad apples — an isolated incident, if you will. Implicit in Dawn’s line of argumentation is the assumption that this was more systemic, and that even if the administration didn’t specifically order the abuse, they created the conditions in which some could think abuse was acceptable.
In this, I think Dawn is probably closer to right, given the Gonzales memo and other evidence.
What bothers me the most about the Abu Ghraib scandal is that nobody has been held accountable for it. Not really. If I’m not mistaken, the highest-ranking official to be prosecuted was a staff sergeant. And here I thought the higher-ups were supposed to take responsibility for what happened on their watch. Consider another myth shattered.
Had the military and the department of defense been held fully accountable for what happened at Abu Ghraib, then you would probably be right about the release of the new photos — there would be no further need to release them. But all that really happened was a couple of low-ranking offenders were prosecuted — only the ones against whom we had the most damning evidence — and the rest was swept under the carpet.
Wrapping up, I ask you to think long and hard about this: how do you suppose the right would be treating this if the abuses had been committed under a Democratic administration?
Comment 10/1/2005
tgirsch: What bothers me the most about the Abu Ghraib scandal is that nobody has been held accountable for it. Not really. If I’m not mistaken, the highest-ranking official to be prosecuted was a staff sergeant.
Fred: Do you have evidence that anyone else higher up was guilty of the abuse? Where does this idea that everyone above a criminal is also guilty come from? You wouldn’t put up with that in your personal life, would you? The people who need to be punished for crimes are the ones who commit the crimes. To hold people responsible for a crime who have nothing to do with it is unjust and unAmerican.
How do you know anything was swept under the rug? What evidence do you have? Your prejudice is showing.
Comment 10/1/2005
tgirsch: Wrapping up, I ask you to think long and hard about this: how do you suppose the right would be treating this if the abuses had been committed under a Democratic administration?
Fred: Interesting comment. Your admission that the criticism is based on politics is unusual for a liberal. It reminds me of the comments by liberal senators who promise a battle against Bush’s next Supreme Court nominee without even knowing who it will be. Let’s don’t bother waiting for the facts. The criticism is all about politics.
Comment 10/1/2005
Fred:
What I have is rock-solid evidence that abuse not only happened, but at least in one location was widespread. And that happened on someone’s watch. If I manage a retail store and my employees are stealing money from the till, I’m still responsible even if I’m not the one doing the stealing. And if I don’t even notice the theft until someone else points it out to my boss, you can bet I’m going to be held to account, both for creating an environment in which employee theft can run rampant, and for failing to notice when it actually happens.
Why shouldn’t our military commanders and department of defense be held to at least that standard?
How do you figure? Politics always plays a role, and I don’t know anyone who seriously denies this. But you clearly missed my point. I was merely pointing out to Wacko that if the administration were different, his party would be calling for the release of the photos with just as much vigor as that with which they’re condemning it now. But that’s not at all relevant to whether or not the photos actually should be released.
Some things should transcend politics, and I would want these photos released in this situation no matter which party is in power. If Democrats are guilty of encouraging abuse and torture or are complicit in allowing them to occur, then we should string them up every bit as high as the Republicans who are guilty of the same. Is that non-partisan enough for you?
Which liberal senators have said this? I know many have vowed to fight anyone with a Bork/Thomas/Scalia jurisprudence, but I don’t know of anyone who has said they will unconditionally fight to block any Bush appointee, no matter who it is.
Comment 10/1/2005
tgirsch: If I manage a retail store and my employees are stealing money from the till, I’m still responsible even if I’m not the one doing the stealing.
Fred: And if you were arrested because your employees stole money you would be crying about your innocence. If a person commits a crime, he should be responsible. You are responsible for you own actions. If you know the theft is going on, then you are responsible as an accessory. Why are you against equal justice under the law?
Comment 10/1/2005
Quit moving the goal posts, Fred. Where did I say anything about anyone being arrested? What I said was that they should be held accountable. In the retail theory, I wouldn’t get arrested for theft, but I would get fired (or at least formally reprimanded).
Comment 10/1/2005
Just wanted to point out the irony of arguing a lack of evidence in a freedom-of-information case. Obtaining more evidence is precisely the reason the suit was filed.
For my part, I have to conclude this is bigger than the 7 peons who were tried. Can a lowly prison guard really comandeer an attack dog whenever they want? Is there no paperwork or orders or permissions for that sort of thing? I mean if you’re a guard at night, isn’t your job primarily to make sure everyone is tucked into their cell? You have no reason to be pulling people out of cells in the middle of the night…unless you have orders to. Officers were either in on it (probable) or negligent (less probable). It doesn’t take a whole lot of supervision to notice that there’s an enormous pyramid of naked prisoners. Add to that reports of similar events in Afghanistan and Cuba and it’s not hard to connect the dots.
The only thing special about Abu Gharib is the soldiers were dumb enough to take photos. For that they’ll get 3 years in jail. Not because they sodomized someone with a chemical stick: but because they were dumb enough to film it.
Of course McCain doesn’t want the photos released. He’s a military guy and doesn’t want to see them smeared. For that matter a number of Democrat senators have seen the photos and they aren’t touching it. I’m guessing they feel like it’s too hard for Americans to handle. I think they’re right. Look how people glance over the reports of interrogations where people died, but fixate on a hooded naked man. Photos are more powerful than words. Now imagine releasing a video of someone being raped. Not one image, but thousands in a row, with a sensation of time and full audio… What would that do to our national identity? It would devastate us. We are way to proud to allow that to happen. It simply won’t. The ruling may be turned over on appeal or the tapes may simply disappear, but the chances of us seeing the tapes are near zero.
So transparency and accountability are sacrificed for our national pride (and also prestige). We as a country don’t have the courage to face it. That agreement was sealed in the Senate. In an election year.
Comment 10/5/2005