For my part, I have to conclude this is bigger than the 7 peons who were tried. Can a lowly prison guard really comandeer an attack dog whenever they want? Is there no paperwork or orders or permissions for that sort of thing? I mean if you’re a guard at night, isn’t your job primarily to make sure everyone is tucked into their cell? You have no reason to be pulling people out of cells in the middle of the night…unless you have orders to. Officers were either in on it (probable) or negligent (less probable). It doesn’t take a whole lot of supervision to notice that there’s an enormous pyramid of naked prisoners. Add to that reports of similar events in Afghanistan and Cuba and it’s not hard to connect the dots.

The only thing special about Abu Gharib is the soldiers were dumb enough to take photos. For that they’ll get 3 years in jail. Not because they sodomized someone with a chemical stick: but because they were dumb enough to film it.

Of course McCain doesn’t want the photos released. He’s a military guy and doesn’t want to see them smeared. For that matter a number of Democrat senators have seen the photos and they aren’t touching it. I’m guessing they feel like it’s too hard for Americans to handle. I think they’re right. Look how people glance over the reports of interrogations where people died, but fixate on a hooded naked man. Photos are more powerful than words. Now imagine releasing a video of someone being raped. Not one image, but thousands in a row, with a sensation of time and full audio… What would that do to our national identity? It would devastate us. We are way to proud to allow that to happen. It simply won’t. The ruling may be turned over on appeal or the tapes may simply disappear, but the chances of us seeing the tapes are near zero.

So transparency and accountability are sacrificed for our national pride (and also prestige). We as a country don’t have the courage to face it. That agreement was sealed in the Senate. In an election year.

Fred: And if you were arrested because your employees stole money you would be crying about your innocence. If a person commits a crime, he should be responsible. You are responsible for you own actions. If you know the theft is going on, then you are responsible as an accessory. Why are you against equal justice under the law?

Do you have evidence that anyone else higher up was guilty of the abuse?

What I have is rock-solid evidence that abuse not only happened, but at least in one location was widespread. And that happened on someone’s watch. If I manage a retail store and my employees are stealing money from the till, I’m still responsible even if I’m not the one doing the stealing. And if I don’t even notice the theft until someone else points it out to my boss, you can bet I’m going to be held to account, both for creating an environment in which employee theft can run rampant, and for failing to notice when it actually happens.

Why shouldn’t our military commanders and department of defense be held to at least that standard?

Your admission that the criticism is based on politics is unusual for a liberal.

How do you figure? Politics always plays a role, and I don’t know anyone who seriously denies this. But you clearly missed my point. I was merely pointing out to Wacko that if the administration were different, his party would be calling for the release of the photos with just as much vigor as that with which they’re condemning it now. But that’s not at all relevant to whether or not the photos actually should be released.

Some things should transcend politics, and I would want these photos released in this situation no matter which party is in power. If Democrats are guilty of encouraging abuse and torture or are complicit in allowing them to occur, then we should string them up every bit as high as the Republicans who are guilty of the same. Is that non-partisan enough for you?

It reminds me of the comments by liberal senators who promise a battle against Bush’s next Supreme Court nominee without even knowing who it will be.

Which liberal senators have said this? I know many have vowed to fight anyone with a Bork/Thomas/Scalia jurisprudence, but I don’t know of anyone who has said they will unconditionally fight to block any Bush appointee, no matter who it is.

Fred: Interesting comment. Your admission that the criticism is based on politics is unusual for a liberal. It reminds me of the comments by liberal senators who promise a battle against Bush’s next Supreme Court nominee without even knowing who it will be. Let’s don’t bother waiting for the facts. The criticism is all about politics.

Fred: Do you have evidence that anyone else higher up was guilty of the abuse? Where does this idea that everyone above a criminal is also guilty come from? You wouldn’t put up with that in your personal life, would you? The people who need to be punished for crimes are the ones who commit the crimes. To hold people responsible for a crime who have nothing to do with it is unjust and unAmerican.
How do you know anything was swept under the rug? What evidence do you have? Your prejudice is showing.

I’m late getting to this discussion, but I have a few comments.

First and foremost, I find it supremely ironic that any supporter of our actions in Iraq would accuse anyone else of “losing focus” after 9/11. If Iraq (with no significant pre-war ties to al-Qaeda, and no ties at all to 9/11) doesn’t represent the ultimate loss of focus, I don’t know what does. So it’s pretty rich to have people who strongly support our Iraqi adventures lecture us about having the “wrong priorities” concerning terror and 9/11.

Second, I think to a certain extent you and Dawn are talking past each other. Implicit in your dismissal of the importance of releasing the new abuse photos is the underlying assumption that this was just the actions of a few bad apples — an isolated incident, if you will. Implicit in Dawn’s line of argumentation is the assumption that this was more systemic, and that even if the administration didn’t specifically order the abuse, they created the conditions in which some could think abuse was acceptable.

In this, I think Dawn is probably closer to right, given the Gonzales memo and other evidence.

What bothers me the most about the Abu Ghraib scandal is that nobody has been held accountable for it. Not really. If I’m not mistaken, the highest-ranking official to be prosecuted was a staff sergeant. And here I thought the higher-ups were supposed to take responsibility for what happened on their watch. Consider another myth shattered.

Had the military and the department of defense been held fully accountable for what happened at Abu Ghraib, then you would probably be right about the release of the new photos — there would be no further need to release them. But all that really happened was a couple of low-ranking offenders were prosecuted — only the ones against whom we had the most damning evidence — and the rest was swept under the carpet.

Wrapping up, I ask you to think long and hard about this: how do you suppose the right would be treating this if the abuses had been committed under a Democratic administration?

If evidence ever comes to light that the level of torture happens in our US prisons, then I will be horrified at that as well. But I think that’s yet another deflection. Another reason to convince yourself that these things aren’t as bad as they seem. I can’t understand how anyone can look at those pictures, the ones that have already been out, and not weep for our country. I don’t understand the depths of denial some are reaching. Do you understand that my horror isn’t just at what those prisoners went through, but at the fact that we did that? We did those things that I always thought the bad guys only did. That America was better than that.

I really wonder how low the government has to sink before some will stop trying to rationalize it and justify it, or at the very least think it isn’t as bad as 9/11, or that 9/11 somehow justifies it. Or using 9/11 as some kind of measuring stick and thinking “At least what we’re doing to other people isn’t as bad as that!” As far as trying to persuade some of my fellow Americans to wake up, I think I give up. I just give up, and tell the rest of the world we’re not all like that, I swear. Some of us are trying to maintain a shred of dignity instead of buring our heads in the sand.

Perhaps I shouldn’t have used ALL CAPS for emphasis It comes across as shouting, and I’m certainly not upset or angry. I guess that’s the biggest limitation of this kind of communication – you lose about 90% of its intended meaning.

You implied that the prisoner abuse was just as bad as what happened on 9/11. Perhaps you are not suggesting that, but that’s how I interpreted the quoted text. I undersdtand that both situations horrify you and that one does not limit your feeling towards 9/11.

I simply happen to feel that releasing additional horrific photos will do nothing beneficial. I am on your side in that I am horrified by what happened at Abu Gharib but perhaps not as equally horrified.

Perhaps we should be equally horrified by the abuse of prisoners in our own U.S. jails…just a thought.