Romney Faith Fair Game
Posted by
Kevin
Mitt Romney is complaining that too many of his GOP opponents are attacking him based on his religion:
Mitt Romney said Saturday that criticism of his Mormon religion by rival GOP presidential campaigns is happening too frequently.
“Clearly, any derogatory comments about anyone’s faith — those comments are troubling. The fact they keep on coming up is even more troubling,” Romney said during a fundraising trip in the home state of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
Normally I would be on Romney’s side here, but Romney has made his faith a center point of his campaign. He has pandered shamelessly to the religious right on a host of issues, going to often ridiculous extremes to explain why his flip flops aren’t, actually, flip flops. More, his faith is one of the center point of his campaign. He wants people to vote for him because, in large part, he is a “man of faith.” That appeal rests on two pillars — tribalism and policy — and as such its perfectly acceptable to take issue with the actual meaning of that appeal.
Part of the reason for emphasis his faith is to convince GOP primary voters — specifically those voters who are members of the religious right and similar groups — that he is one of them. Tribalism is a powerful force in human history and relationships and the modern GOP has used that force very effectively. So effectively, ion fact, that it is close to impossible for a GOP candidate to survive the primary without the support of the religious right. Romney knows this, and knows that tribalism can be an effective way to reach a large portion of that voting base. Unfortunately for Romney, a good portion of that voting block doesn’t consider Mormons real Christians. As such, it is perfectly reasonable for other candidates to say, in effect, “no, whatever game he talks, he is not actually a member of our tribe.” It isn’t the prettiest of politics, but it is a fact of life and such attacks are made legitimate by Romney’s own actions. He is either trying to pass as a member of a tribe he is not or convince that tribe to enlarge its definition of who qualifies for membership. If Romney didn’t want to be attacked based on religious tribalism, he should not have made such a strong effort to con/convince the religious right tribe that he belongs to them.
Similarly, Romney’s placing his faith at the center of his campaign opens him up to questions about what, exactly, does that mean. When a political candidates says, essentially, that his faith guides his decisions, then people are entitled to know what his faith instucts its members to do. And those instructions are just as open to discussion, debate, attack, and rejection as any other set of policy positions or guiding principles. Again, if Romney did not want the tenets of his faith to be campaign fodder then he should be careful to not give the impression that his faith will guide his decisions.
This is obviously a tricky issue. The line between legitimate debate and bigoted attacks is very fine, and very easy to cross with the blunt instrument that is our current media. Attacks on Romney for being Mormon are out of line and should be condemned. But Romney has brought his faith to the forefront of his campaign. It is perfectly acceptable — indeed, it is almost an obligations– for his opponents to question what, exactly, that means. If Romney does not like it, then he either needs to convince GOP primary voters that they like what it means or he should change his tactics. But complaining that other campaigns are taking his faith and its requirements as seriously as he says he does is just whining.
“Unfortunately for Romney, a good portion of that voting block doesn’t consider Mormons real Christians.”
That’s because Mormons are not Christians. It is not wrong to point out that mormons do not believe in the diety of Christ as taught in the Bible. No one should consider himself a Christian who does not believe the basic tenets of Christianity. Having said that, I would not exclude considering voting for Romney if he wins the nomination.
Comment 6/25/2007
“good portion of that voting block doesn’t consider Mormons real Christians”
Mormons aren’t Christians any more than Christians are Jewish. Depsite the historical links between the three, each has significant and irreconcilable differences in their handling of core theological issues.
Which isn’t to say there’s anything wrong with Romney being Mormon, just that he should be honest as to the nature of his beliefs.
Comment 6/25/2007
Well, I find this whole thing deliciously satisfying, and hope it continues until there’s nobody left to say “Happy Holidays” to. But, all that notwithstanding, and not that it matters, and acknowledging it’s not my issue anyway, why is it so obvious that Mormonism is not Christian?
The fact that there are severe differences between Mormonism and traditional Christianity on central issues shouldn’t be enough to decide one clearly is and one clearly isn’t “Christian”. Irreconcilable differences over matters definitive of the faith exist between Orthodox and Roman Catholic Christians, and beween Catholic and Protestant Christians. In each of those cases, both sides have accused the other of being apostate, and in each of those cases the general response has been to allow by courtesy the claims of both sides to the title. I don’t see why Mormons can’t be brought into the same fold.
Again, the mere fact that their beliefs differ from, or are even incompatible with, those of mainstream Christian sects is not enough to make them non-Christian. It’s understood that most (or all) of the many Christian sects hold somewhat flawed beliefs, but they are still Christian for all that. It has little to do with what their beliefs actually are, or whether they are compatible with those of traditional Christianity. (And surely no mainstream Christian group could be bold enough to reject Mormonisn for mere implausibility!) Mormons make the claim that actual Christianity does include the beliefs they hold; logically, merely citing the fact that mainstream Christianity does not include those beliefs, and then concluding that Mormonism is not Christianity for that reason, is an example of the fallacy of begging the question. Mormonism certainly bears enough of a “family resemblance” to Christianity to qualify as such presumptively; the fact that the others don’t want it among them is no reason to reject it.
But please, don’t let me talk any believers out of savaging each other’s political candidates!
Comment 6/25/2007
[…] Wesley Clark Link to Article mitt romney Romney Faith Fair Game » Posted at Lean Left on Monday, June 25, 2007 Mitt Romney is complaining that too many of his GOP opponents are attacking him based on his religion: Mitt Romney said Saturday that criticism of his Mormon religion by rival GOP presidential … comments are troubling. The fact they keep on coming up is even more troubling,” Romney said during View Entire Article » […]
Pingback 6/25/2007
“Only recently have Mormons wanted to be called Christians, preferring not to be included with Christian denominations, which Joseph Smith said were all wrong … all their creeds were an abomination in his sight, and that those professors (Christians) were all corrupt. (Pearl of Great Price, Joseph Smith, 2:18-19).
Mormons have preferred to be called “saints”; however, in the recent years the LDS church has spent millions in an intense “PR” campaign aimed at moving the church into the mainstream of Christianity. The political and economic benefits of Mormons being included in the mainstream of Christianity are obvious. Further, for Mormons to be accepted as traditional Christians would greatly aid in proselytizing the members of Christian denominations into the LDS church. This is why the LDS church is trying so hard to present itself as Christian and is trying to overcome the stigma of being a cult.”
–copied
“Mormons do not follow or believe in the historic Jesus Christ of the Bible, but rather in a different Jesus. This is why most Biblical Christians emphatically insist that Mormons are not Christians. Let me explain.
The god of the Mormons is not the God of the Bible. To the Mormons, Jesus is the firstborn son of an exalted “man” who became the god of this world. The man-god of Mormonism was made the god of this world because of his good works on another planet somewhere out in the universe. He “earned” godhood, and was thus appointed by a counsel of gods in the heavens to his high position as the god of planet Earth. The Mormon god of this world was a man, like all men, who became a god. This is what the celestial marriage and the temple vows are all about. LDS men, by doing their temple work, are striving for exaltation by which they, too, shall one day become gods. Their wives will be the mother goddesses of “their” world and with their husband will produce the population of their world. This is the Mormon doctrine of “eternal progression.”
Note the following quote from the Mormon Journal of Discourses, vol. 1, page 123, made by the LDS Apostle Orson Hyde:
“Remember that God, our heavenly Father, was perhaps once a child, a mortal like we ourselves, and rose step by step in the scale of progress, in the school of advancement; has moved forward and overcome, until He has arrived at the point were He is.”
Lorenzo Snow, late President of the Mormon church, made this statement in the second verse of his famous poem entitled, “Man’s Destiny”:
“As Abra’m, Isaac, Jacob, too, babes, then men–to gods they grew. As man now is, our God once was; As now God is, so man may be,– Which doth unfold man’s destiny. . .”
The God of the Bible is not an exalted man. The God of the Bible is omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient. The Bible says He is the only God and there are no other Gods. He had no beginning or end and he is a spirit being and never was a man.”
–copied
There is much evidence that Mormons are not Christians. Do a google search on “Are Mormons Christians?” You will see that for most of their history they made no claim of being biblical Christians
Comment 6/25/2007
If we use Christ’s admonition of “By their fruits ye shall know them” as a criteria for finding out who is christian and who is not, then Romney, to me, seems more “christian” than other top tier Republican candidates! (re: Giuliani, McCain, etc.,) By the way, Christ has continued to use an outsider (inherently non-religious) like a Samaritan (re: Good Samaritan and the lone leper of the ten who thanked Jesus) as model figures in this debate of who is Christian and who is not! The author of this post as well as those of similar articles on Romney’s religion give off a seemingly foul odor of HYPOCRISY!! - a behavior that is abhorred and detested by the Savior. Don’t be surprised if you end up finding a beam in your eye, and a mote in the Mormon’s.
Comment 6/25/2007
As a devout Mormon, I believe that Jesus Christ is the God of this world and the Jehovah of the Old Testament. Under the direction of his Father, our Heavenly Father, he created the earth. He is our advocate with the Father. He atoned for our sins, so that on conditions of repentance and following His commandments, we may one day live again with Him in his kingdom (the Celestial Kingdom). He has a body of flesh and bone, as does his Father. He is one
with his Father, as we may become one with Him as we love, serve and obey Him. Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent. Truth is revealed by prophets, ancient and modern, and to us individually as we exercize faith, study, ponder, pray and keep the commandments. Through the power of the Holy Ghost, the third member of the Godhead–the only one not having a body–we can know the truth about God the Father and Jesus Christ, our Savior. They love us unconditionally, though we cannot live eternally in the kingdom where they reside if we don’t someday, somewhere, through eons of time, become like they are. We lived with them in the spirit world before this one where we chose to follow Jesus Christ, unlike one third of the spirit children of Heavenly Father who chose to follow Lucifer and were cast out of Heaven. We agreed to come to this earth, our second estate, to gain a body and to be tested and tried so that one day we could return as resurrected beings to live eternally with our beloved Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ. I find no more reassuring doctrine than this. Just as I have the potential to become like my earthly mother, I can one day be as pure, perfect and knowledgeable as my Heavenly Mother. Yet, I will throughout eternity worship and honor my Heavenly Father and my Savior, Jesus Christ, who stand supreme. And that’s not all, those who choose by their faith and works to attain to God’s kingdom will be sealed to their families all the way back to Adam and Eve. Awesome, isn’t it. And you can know this for yourself if you have the faith and courage to get on your knees, pray with sincerity for guidance and direction so that you won’t be deceived, study the scriptures, live with integrity, and wait patiently for answers. The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are all scripture. The Book of Mormon tells of Christ’s followers in the Western Hemisphere, where he appeared to them after His resurrection. It refers to the Savior on nearly every page, and it hasn’t been retranslated many times as the Bible has, so it is “the most correct book” on Earth, as was stated by Joseph Smith who translated it from gold plates. Pretty mind-boggling? If you really want to know more, go to the right source, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints’ website at LDS.org.
Comment 6/25/2007
Thank you for proving that Mormons are not Christians.
Comment 6/25/2007
>Again, the mere fact that their beliefs
>differ from, or are even incompatible
>with, those of mainstream Christian sects
>is not enough to make them non-Christian.
What then is enough to make a person non-Christian? Is anyone who claims to be Christian a Christian merely because they say so? Or does ‘Christian’ actually mean something specific?
Again, I’d consider it to the relationship between Mormonism and Christianity to that between Christianity and Judaism. Christianity claims much of Jewish history and it’s religious texts as its own, but then ads on a significant new body of writing than completely changed the nature of its religious views. So much so that it ceased to be a form of Judaism. Likewise Mormonism attached a significant new body of thought onto Christianity that again changed the core nature of the religion.
If, say, Pat Buchanan were running for President again and started telling people he’s really Jewish and that he’s disturbed by how many people keep suggesting that Christians aren’t real Jews, nobody would take him seriously.
Again, this isn’t to say I think it’s wrong to be a Mormon or that I wouldn’t vote for someone because they’re Mormon. But if you believe in a particular thing, you should want to stand up for it, not try an sweep everything under the rug in an attempt to get people to like you by trying to pretend you’re just like them when you’re not.
Sometimes it almost seems like Romney is almost embarrased by his faith.
Comment 6/25/2007
It seems logical that a Christian is a person who believes Jesus Christ is the Son of God and the Savior of the world and accepts Him as his personal savior. It seems that to be considered Christian in our culture, it is expected that you accept the Nicene Creed, wherein God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three in one–one spirit big enough to fill the universe but small enough to dwell in one’s heart. It is my understanding that the Creed was a compromise to end a disagreement about the nature of the Godhead. I find it much more difficult to accept this belief than to believe my Savior and my Father in Heaven have exalted bodies, as we were formed in the image of God. They are “one in spirit” just as I am “one in spirit” with those who believe as I do. They are exactly alike in perfection, knowledge and love for us. Jesus Christ does nothing but what His Father does. I don’t believe Mitt Romney is embarrassed by anything. He simply would like to talk about the issues without having to continuously prove he is a Christian.
Comment 6/25/2007
Stormy, this blog has nothing to do with Romney and his treatment. It is a flagrant attempt (again) to discredit non-liberal religious people. The people who run leanleft.com couldn’t care less about Mormons and whether or not they are Christians.
Comment 6/25/2007
“He simply would like to talk about the issues without having to continuously prove he is a Christian.”
He cannot prove what is not true. He is not a Christian. He is a mormon.
Comment 6/25/2007
[…] There are dueling posts up at Lean Left with KTK asking What is Off-Limits, and Why?, while Kevin started with Romney Faith Fair Game? […]
Pingback 6/25/2007
Fred, please explain how Carolyn’s outline of Mormon beliefs makes them non-Christian. What details in it are different? Is this just about the whole physical body thing, which was universal in the Church for quite some time before getting dropped as part of the belief system? Where is the distinction here?
Comment 6/27/2007
Here are a few of the non-Christian doctrines stated by Nielsen and other Mormons:
–He has a body of flesh and bone, as does his Father.
–we cannot live eternally in the kingdom where they reside if we don’t someday, somewhere, through eons of time, become like they are. We lived with them in the spirit world before this one where we chose to follow Jesus Christ, unlike one third of the spirit children of Heavenly Father who chose to follow Lucifer and were cast out of Heaven.
–We agreed to come to this earth, our second estate, to gain a body and to be tested and tried so that one day we could return as resurrected beings to live eternally with our beloved Father in Heaven and Jesus Christ.
–Just as I have the potential to become like my earthly mother, I can one day be as pure, perfect and knowledgeable as my Heavenly Mother.
– The Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price are all scripture
–The Book of Mormon tells of Christ’s followers in the Western Hemisphere, where he appeared to them after His resurrection.
Mormons are free to have any beliefs they want to. However, they are not free to call themselves Christians when they do not hold to Christian doctrines. They are no more Christians than I am a Jew or a Muslim even though there may be a sharing of some historical figures.
Comment 6/27/2007
Fred,
Thanks for that answer. It was pleasantly civil.
For those of us who aren’t up on the details of the various Christian sects, could you elaborate on that with how each of those points differ from whatever you’re using as your standard of Christianity?
For instance, I recall that mainline Christianity believed in bodily resurrection, including on the part of Jesus, so is your first point only an objection to the claim about the father, is my recollection faulty, or has “real” Christianity given up on bodily resurrection of Jesus?
Comment 6/27/2007
“so is your first point only an objection to the claim about the father,”
Obviously, yes. You know that real Christians have not given up on the bodily resurrection of Christ.
“For those of us who aren’t up on the details of the various Christian sects, could you elaborate on that with how each of those points differ from whatever you’re using as your standard of Christianity?”
That’s the point. No Christian sects believe what Mormons believe about God the Father and Christ.
“Thanks for that answer. It was pleasantly civil.”
Unlike most of your posts concerning religion.
“
Comment 6/27/2007
–we cannot live eternally in the kingdom where they reside if we don’t someday, somewhere, through eons of time, become like they are.
So I guess Catholics aren’t Christians, then, either, eh?
For what it’s worth, I always thought that a belief in the divinity of Christ was the sole criterion for being considered a Christian. Silly me.
Comment 6/27/2007
“–we cannot live eternally in the kingdom where they reside if we don’t someday, somewhere, through eons of time, become like they are.
So I guess Catholics aren’t Christians, then, either, eh?”
This is in reference to Mormon doctrine that we can eventually become gods like God the Father became a god. Catholics don’t believe this. You really need to do a little research before you respond.
“For what it’s worth, I always thought that a belief in the divinity of Christ was the sole criterion for being considered a Christian. Silly me.”
It’s not worth much. Who has said a Christian doesn’t have to believe in the divinity of Christ in order to be a Christian? “Silly me” is right.
Comment 6/28/2007
“That’s the point. No Christian sects believe what Mormons believe about God the Father and Christ.”
Yes, but what DO “Christian sects” believe? I’m curious whether you think my Episcopalian church is Christian. On the other hand, they’ve got a gay bishop, so I guess the matter is moot.
I’m also guessing that you don’t think the Gnostics were Christians. Is that right? We’ve brought them up from time to time but you never answered those questions.
Comment 6/28/2007
Also, what’s the difference between human spirits who reach purity and godliness, but still look up to God the Father Son and Holy Geist, versus spirits who reach purity and go to Heaven? Sounds like an awfully minor technicality of language to me.
Comment 6/28/2007
“I’m curious whether you think my Episcopalian church is Christian.”
Churches are not Christians. Individually, people are. It matters not what church you claim. It does matter what you think of Christ. Certainly the Epicopalian church has strayed from biblical principles in its acceptance of sinful acts as being okay.
Comment 6/28/2007
Rachel:
“Yes, but what DO ‘Christian sects’ believe?”
Regarding what? (I’m not being facetious, it’s kind of a broad question…)
tgirsch:
Affirming the divinity of Christ doesn’t necessarily make one a Christian. Although they considered Christ divine, the Arians of the 4th century weren’t considered Christian by those who claimed orthodoxy because they subordinated Christ to the Father. If Christians speak of the divinity of Christ, it is in agreement with apostolic tradition (i.e. creeds) and the biblical testimony of Jesus. If we miss those two elements, well, we get the kind of chaos that was indicative of the early church…
Comment 6/28/2007
“Affirming the divinity of Christ doesn’t necessarily make one a Christian.”
Exactly. A person can’t be a Christian without recognizing the divinity of Christ, but recognizing the divinity of Christ does not make him a Christian.
Comment 6/28/2007
I said nothing about my church being a Christian. There’s a difference.
Dan G.: Regarding the listing of Mormon beliefs which Fred claimed differ from Christian beliefs.
Comment 6/28/2007
Dan G:
But where, then, do you draw the line? Which sorts of disagreement are acceptable and which aren’t?
And for what it’s worth, I’m not aware exactly where in scripture it tells us we must believe that Jesus is God. Divine? Yes. The path to salvation? Yes. God himself? Not so much. In fact, Jesus consistently speaks of God as if He is a separate entity, not merely another aspect of himself. At the mountain of olives he prays to God to spare him from the sacrifice he’s about to make. On the cross itself, he bemoans that God has forsaken him. Either Jesus isn’t God, or God’s psychotic. We’re also told that Christ sits “at the right hand of the father.” Last I checked, a right-hand man isn’t an equal, but a close subordinate.
Now, admittedly, most modern Christian denominations claim a triune God and go with the whole Jesus-is-God shtick (in large part to avoid a polytheist label, I suspect), but the Biblical case for this is weak-to-nonexistent. If it ain’t in the Christian Bible, I fail to see how failing to adhere to an extra-Biblical dogma disqualifies one from being fairly classified as “Christian.” It smacks of the whole “no true Scotsman” fallacy.
Comment 6/28/2007
“so is your first point only an objection to the claim about the father,”
Obviously, yes. You know that real Christians have not given up on the bodily resurrection of Christ.
This is not obvious to somebody who hasn’t already chosen one of the sects to call “real”.
Comment 6/29/2007
“I fail to see how failing to adhere to an extra-Biblical dogma disqualifies one from being fairly classified as “Christian.”
LOL You’re a hoot. Thanks for the laugh.
Comment 6/29/2007
tgirsch:
I’m not trying to be argumentative. I was speaking broadly of how orthodox Christians qualify themselves apart from other “sects.”
If you care, I refer you to John’s Gospel. Statements like “The Word was God,” and “I and my Father are one” pretty clearly outline the orthodox Christian position. Also, if you care, orthodox Christians have been affirming a triune God since the days of the church’s inception, it isn’t just a modern phenomenon. Hopefully you can just trust that I know my shit because I don’t particularly care to proof-text, theologize, or proselytize.
Rachel:
The tenants of the Mormon Faith (expounded by Fred) are accepted only by the Mormon church. Briefly, you wouldn’t find any other Christian “sect” (orthodox or otherwise) that would accept the Christology or Doctrine of God of the Mormon Church.
Comment 6/29/2007
Dan G., that begs the previous question. Should they be excluded from the label “Christian” because they have some doctrins that are not shared by any other sect? (Why did ’sect’ get quotes there?) Does that mean that any group with unique doctrines cannot be Christian? Or is it only some subset of doctrines that are definitive of the label? And if the latter case, what are those doctrines? It appears that if the criteria are not to be subject to the caprice of the speaker, then they must pertain to the label itself. Namely, anyone who follows Christ must be accepted under the label ‘Christian’. There’s certainly consensus that the title ‘Christ’ refers to one particular Jesus of Nazareth. Unless the Mormons distinguish their Christ from that other Christ, don’t they have full claim to the label ‘Christian’?
Comment 6/29/2007
Dan M.:
I think I put ’sect’ in quote because Rachel originally put quotes around “Christian sects.” I think it was a subconscious thing…
Quite frankly, you could qualify the term “Christian” however you wish. Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons would be considered Christian under your qualifications (i.e. whoever follows Christ). However, your qualification for who or what is Christian hasn’t been normed by the history or tradition of the Church. There are certain uncompromisable dogmas that are universal between orthodox Christians of different traditions. Imagine, if you will, if Fred insisted on being called a liberal and insisted that his ideas were liberal. He wouldn’t have the credibility because his ideas haven’t been normed by the history and tradition of liberalism in the Western World.
I hope that is an adequate explanation… I don’t particularly care to discuss these issues in threads…
Comment 6/29/2007
Here is the difference between say JFK and how he managed the “Church” thing. When Kennedy had to explain his views on religion basically he said My religion is my personal matter and when it comes to governing the United States the constitution is the bible. Now since then off course we have had the religious nutters come on the scene and now their religion is more important then the constitution. I think Romney is a fraud and one of the most monumental flip floppers of all time. If the stupid voting public, and they are stupid which is proved by the fact that they elected this incopmpetent boob Bush twice,want to go ahend and elect a grown man who wears “Special Underwear” so he can get his own planet soem day where he will be the god in residence well then they get what they deserve and as we are witnessing in these Latter Days of the Bush regime we surely got what we deserved. We voted for the silvveer tongued devil and we are paying dearly for it and will continue to pay for it for years to come. One can only hope we don’t vote for another boob like this current one.
Comment 7/5/2007