Bridge Status Discrepencies
Aug 2
By now you have heard about the horrible tragedy in Minneapolis. As of now, eight have been confirmed dead and twenty to thirty are listed as missing.The search for what went wrong is, as it should be, already taking place. In that vein, I noticed two things that, taken together, are disturbing. First, the Gov. of the state said this:
Governor Pawlenty said the bridge had an unusual design and was inspected in 2005 and 2006. No structural deficiencies were detected, he said.
However, the Star Tribune reported that the Federal government had, possibly, a different notion of the quality of the bridge:
The highway bridge that collapsed into the Mississippi River on Wednesday was rated as “structurally deficient” two years ago and possibly in need of replacement.
That rating was contained in the U.S. Department of Transportation’s National Bridge Inventory database.
Jeanne Aamodt, a spokeswoman for the Minnesota Department of Transportation, said the department was aware of the 2005 assessment of the bridge. “We’ve seen it, and we are very familiar with it,” she said.
Now, those two quotes look bad, but they may not actually contradict one another. From the same link as above:
The inventory data also summarize the bridge’s status as “structurally deficient.” Bridge components are ranked on a scale of 0 to 9, with 0 being “failed” and 9 being “excellent.”
In 2005, the bridge’s superstructure — meaning the physical conditions of all structural members — was rated at 4, records show. The bridge’s deck was rated 5, and the substructure, comprised of the piers, abutments, footings and other components, was rated 6.
Governor Pawlenty may be technically correct: it is not clear from the Star Tribune article whether or not a rating of 4 meant that there were actual structural defects or that the bridge was likely to develop defects considering the use and then condition. But whether or not “what is the meaning of is” parsing gets Pawlenty out of a technical lie, his statement does imply that the bridge was fine. That, at least, is not entirely true:
The deficiency rating is derived from a complex formula that evaluates many factors and condenses them into an overall score. A score of 80 percent or less indicates some rehabilitation may be needed; a 50 percent score or less indicates replacement may be in order.
The I-35W bridge was rated at 50 percent. The rating data was provided to the Star Tribune by the National Institute of Computer Assisted Reporting.
So, at a minimum, the bridge was marked structurally deficient and the state government knew this. So why would Pawlenty give out a statement that would state otherwise?
First, he may just not have been aware. He may not have know that there was a potential problem, which means his Administration is not being run competently. He may have been trying to short-circuit speculation until he could get real answers from his department heads. The state government refused to say what, if anything, was being down to correct the deficiencies the Federal government found:
Aamodt declined to say what the agency was going to do to address the deficiencies found in 2005 and referred further questions to Dan Dorgan, state bridge engineer and director of the bridge office. Dorgan wasn’t available for comment.
There may be a good reason for the work not having been done by now. But then Pawlenty should have just said some variation of that. Pawlenty may also be afraid that this decision could be coming back to haunt him:
If it were to become law, the bill would infuse $7.3 billion into road construction and mass transit operation over the next decade through a combination of revenue sources that includes the gas tax. If it’s shot down, it would leave legislators little time to come up with an alternative before they adjourn May 23.
. Pawlenty did, in fact, veto the bill. And if necessary bridge work was pushed back or ignored because there were budget issues, that speaks poorly to both the ability of the Pawlenty administration to set priorities and of its willingness to properly fund the state’s infrastructure.
The physical infrastructure in this country is in desperate need of repair:
One study estimates that by the year 2005, traffic delays caused by inadequate roads will cost U.S. citizens $50 billion annually in lost wages and wasted fuel. Another study demonstrates how our spending priorities are counterproductive, noting that U.S. motorists spend four times as much money fixing damage to their cars caused by crumbling roads than states spend on repairing the highways. Similarly, it has been estimated that $112 billion will be required to bring the nation’s schools to an overall good condition.
Recent well-documented reports on the condition of our infrastructure are alarming. The American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) recently produced a Report Card for America’s Infrastructure that evaluated the current status of our nation’s roads, bridges, water systems, school buildings, and other elements of the infrastructure. Each category was evaluated on the basis of condition and performance, capacity versus need, and funding versus need by a consensus panel of ASCE experts. The conclusions are sobering. The report assigned letter grades to 10 categories of public works, culminating in an overall grade-point average of “D.”
ASCE estimates that an investment of nearly $1.3 trillion over the next five years is required to bring the infrastructure up to acceptable conditions and functional performance levels. ASCE also noted the great economic costs of failing to adequately address our infrastructure deterioration that exacerbates problems resulting from contaminated drinking water, crumbling schools, obsolete and deficient roads, and airport gridlock.
Decades of “taxes and government are evil” rhetoric has lead to a situation where not enough money is invested to maintain our struggling infrastructure. As Elana Levin has noted, we see the signs of this all around us:
I should probably explain this blog post’s title. When chasms in the earth open up near Grand Central the media tends to report it. Even Fox. But what you won’t see in the media by and large is a discussion of why it is that these accidents take place. Sure they’ll explain how the explosion was caused by water hitting an antediluvian steam pipe but they just won’t make the connection between the lack of investment in our country’s infrastructure and things going kablooie. You see it takes money to keep any locality running. And localities get that money through our taxes.
Infrastructure is quite literally crumbling beneath our feat and to paraphrase Rick Perlstein “it’s not the terrorists, it’s the tax cuts“. You see you can’t have modern society without infrastructure, like emergency services, a working sewage system and a power grid. And if your only goal as a society is to cut taxes eventually you are left with asbestos covered steam pipes from 1924 that explode and kill people - and yes, damage business interests.
If Pawlenty’s decision to not give extra funds to transportation infrastructure did contribute to this disaster, it would just be the most horrific example fo a basic pattern of infrastrucutre neglect in this country that must be corrected.
#1 by Big U at August 2nd, 2007
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As one commenter said last night on the news, let’s put all our energies into looking for the people right now and look to assigning blame in a couple of days.
On local Minnesota news, it was indicated that the deck was being worked on when the collapse took place so repairs of some sort were apparently under way.
That being said, I agree that if the infrastructure is neglected, significant problems will arise.
#2 by gattsuru at August 2nd, 2007
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So why would Pawlenty give out a statement that would state otherwise?
Because it’s easy to say something that’ll sound good on the sound-bite news but takes forever to fact-check?
As to the decaying roads, how about instead of pointlessly raising taxes — an action that has traditionally had little value in — we start, I dunno, using the existing vast amount of money, or even trying to ge the surrounding businesses directly in on the deal?
There are ways to fix problems without raising taxes.
#3 by Kevin at August 2nd, 2007
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Gat
First, I mentioned that reason in the post itself, right after the sentence you quote. But as I mentioned, saying something that you do not know to be true is not a good thing to do in a disaster situation.
Second: taxes are the cost of a society. You cannot pretend that these things do not take money, and you cannot pretend that the money has been found somewhere else. IF these repairs were put off do to budget matters (not proven, btw) like so many others have, it’s pretty much proof that Pawlenty either’ didn’t try to get the funds from other ways or that the funds were not forthcoming from other means.
Taxes are investments in our collective society, in our future. You cannot have a decent, efficient, functioning society without them.
#4 by gattsuru at August 2nd, 2007
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But as I mentioned, saying something that you do not know to be true is not a good thing to do in a disaster situation.
:shrug:
It doesn’t tend to stop people. In his defense, he’s not likely to result in direct injury, and anyone trying to catch him on the matter will have to explain something that took you half a page, not likely to make the news. Not good… but if you’re honestly surprised about a lie from a politician, I’ve got a bridge in Minnesota to sell you.
You cannot pretend that these things do not take money, and you cannot pretend that the money has been found somewhere else
I can’t pretend things are free, and I can’t pretend these idiots even tried something different. On the other hand, I can pretend you’re smart enough to recognize that’s not what I said.
I can honestly state that there are ways to produce value more elegantly and more efficiently than raising taxes.
it’s pretty much proof that Pawlenty either’ didn’t try to get the funds from other ways or that the funds were not forthcoming from other means.
It’s been a while since my last Civics class, but I was unaware that a governer was able to unilaterally create budget items, or had enough time in the day to overlook ever part of the administration. The man’s an idiot, but there’s more than enough blame to bounce around.
#5 by Kevin at August 2nd, 2007
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“n his defense, he’s not likely to result in direct injury, and anyone trying to catch him on the matter will have to explain something that took you half a page, not likely to make the news.”
Which makes it worse - -because it potentially helps cover up systematic (again, not saying this has been proven) problems that could cause these kinds of problems again.
“I can honestly state that there are ways to produce value more elegantly and more efficiently than raising taxes.”
Prove it. Seriously — show me somewhere were massive infrastructure issues are handled without government taxes.
“It’s been a while since my last Civics class, but I was unaware that a governer was able to unilaterally create budget items, or had enough time in the day to overlook ever part of the administration.”
Dude — the Feds told the state that the bring needed to be replaced. Thats something that a Governor should know about. This si not a minor issue. And the govenor certianly shaped the budget with his veto — and he did, as far as I can tell — nothing to replace those funds.
The gov. is responsible for maintaining the states infrastructure. if this was budget realted and he chose not to make this a priority or was unable to get the funds through other means, then, yes, it is his fault, however much blame other individuals may also incur.
#6 by Tyldak at August 2nd, 2007
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For those (like an earlier commenter) saying that we don’t need to raise taxes, well, yes and no. Personally, I’d like to see a large percentage of money that we spend on killing people (re: the “defense” budget) diverted into things like, oh, infrastructure, education, health care, and all of those other government supplied necessities. Why people foam at the mouth that government can’t do anything right don’t question why we outspend the Russians and Chinese and the Indians combined every year on military. And for what? How about it we stop handing out blank checks to defense contractors and start putting that money back into our own infrastructure?
#7 by Splash at August 2nd, 2007
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Watch out for the privatizers. Soon we will hear a swelling roar from Norquist-types about the virtues of privatizing infrastructure.
Dont believe it. It’s a filthy LIE, and an attempt to rip us all off. Deregulation and privatization - the twin pillars of Republican theft of the public trust.
Dont believe the hype. the infrastructure of this country was fine before these miscreant GOP psychos took power, and now that they are on their way out the door, they will try to rip off as much as they can from the public, blaming liberals and Dems every step of the way.
Sorry. Unacceptable.
#8 by JEP at August 2nd, 2007
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The Death Veto…
Just a no-brainer question for Pawlenty…
Doesn’t investment in infrastructure improve the economy, create jobs and enhance national security?
Wouldn’t want any of that “liberal” stuff now, would we?
#9 by Dennis at August 2nd, 2007
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No new taxes, bridge collapses.
Republican rule, incredibly cruel.
#10 by Dan G. at August 2nd, 2007
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Quite frankly Kevin, you do not live in Minnesota and you do not know how government in Minnesota works. Blaming this issue on Gov. Pawlenty’s veto is an entirely reductionist answer. Quite frankly, MnDOT should be blamed: “The fact MnDOT did not bring that forward and request funding tells me engineers did not have any reason to be concerned about its safety.” (DFL Rep Melissa Hortman).
This is not a partisan issue in Minnesota, I suggest you quit making it one here.
#11 by Dan G. at August 2nd, 2007
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I should also point out that the earliest, any construction on the bridge would have started in 2020; and that in Minnesota 3 percent of all bridges are ranked structurally deficient, which puts us at 11th in the country; and that there was construction going on and around the bridge at the time the collapse happened. Honestly, it was probably a conflation of factors that would not have been avoided if we simply threw money at it.
In case you haven’t gathered, I’m a little pissed that you decided to use a tragedy as a platform for you political views. This happened in my backyard and your insensitivity over the matter is appalling.
#12 by Minnesotan at August 2nd, 2007
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Governor Pawlenty vetoed a multi-million highway infrastructure bill two years ago that had passed both houses of the legislature because of his campaign promise not to raise taxes. Also, the work being done on the bridge was resurfacing (a constant task in Minnesota in the summer), nothing structural.
#13 by Kevin at August 2nd, 2007
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Dan G
My wife has relatives — safe, thank God, as I hope everyone you know is - -who live in that area. It offends me deeply that would bitch and moan about political agendas instead of looking at the situation and trying to see what went wrong and what could be done to prevent these mistakes in the future. It is attitudes like that that prevent a full understanding of what wrong on 9/11 - a day people I knew died — and what we need to do to prevent it again, in some areas to this day. I have friends who work in Manhattan and other places that could be terrorist targets. people screaming about “ohh, asking questions is partisan” helped keep them less safe. You don;t get accountability by refusing to ask questions.
And this is only a matter of pushing a political agenda if you are flat out refusing to look at the possibility that there was inadequate funding or bad management — and the only reason to do that s to push the political agenda of covering someone’s ass.
Whatever fyou may think, it takes money to maintain an infrastructure. Budget priorities, scheduling priorities, are not “political agendas” they are the bread and butter of good management. Its possible that the budget had nothing to do with case — as I said — but we wont find that out without asking the questions.
This stuff matters, and it too important not to ask questions about what went wrong and what might have been done. If no one asks these questions, then this could happen again. Decisions have consequences, and in the real world, those consequences may hurt someone. We must NEVER stop demanding accountability of the people who govern us. we are citizens, not serfs.
#14 by Kevin at August 2nd, 2007
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Just to clarify — I didn’t know that the Gov was a R when I wrote this. This “all taxes bad” is endemic in both parties. The Dems don’t do anywhere near a good job of making the case for these priorities; to the extent that the budget decisions contributed to this, its a problem for all parties across the nation. If a Dem had done this, I would be just as angry and would have written the same post. See just a little bit down the page for an example of me ripping a highly popular TN dem.
Politicians will try to cover their rear ends. We saw this after 9/11 –asking questions was wrong and unpatriotic and as a result, it took years to get the most basic movement on fixing the systematic problems that contributed to the security failure that allowed 9/11 to happen. Once the notion that “questions are bad” is allowed to sink in, we lose the chance to find out what really happened and lose the chance to learn from the full measure of mistakes.
I am sorry if this post angers you or seems disrespectful; it was intended to do neither. But things like this should never be allowed to happen again, and the only way to make sure it does not is to hold to the fire everyone involved and not let them skate away from the consequences of their choices and their actions.
#15 by Marshall Escamilla at August 2nd, 2007
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Taxes are investments in our collective society, in our future. You cannot have a decent, efficient, functioning society without them.
I’m not sure that I agree with this statement… from my understanding of history, taxes are every bit as much about power as they are about creating decent, efficient, and functioning societies. It depends, I suppose, on who’s running the tax-collecting body in question, and how much you trust them to do what they say they will do.
Now, I’m certainly not one to say that privatization is any solution–one need only try to deal with the unbearable bureaucracy of Time Warner Cable to get first hand experience with the incompetence of big corporations.
On the other hand, though, back in the days before the automobile, streetcar companies were entirely responsible for laying their own track. Aside from the auto industry people intentionally buying up streetcar companies and dismantling them, the biggest boost that the car got in the 20th century was the industry’s convincing the government to subsidize the development of a highway system. This gave automakers one of many competitive advantages over the streetcar–and led to the smog-filled, unwalkable cities that we live in today.
I feel as though I have digressed. Over all: taxes CAN be sources of important social services provided by the government. If you feel that the government is own and run by the people of your community, and not a small band of elites, then you can feel that much less conflicted about paying those taxes.
#16 by Big U at August 2nd, 2007
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Give the people who have lost loved ones or are still unsure a chance to grieve. Once the river is fully inspected (a couple of days) and the funerals have happened then go after whoever needs to be gone after.
Keep in mind that sometimes bad things happen with no intentional malice. I get tired of listening to people look for someone to blame all the time.
By all means, investigate and if there is fault to be had, nail the person to the wall. However, avoid a witch trial.
#17 by Stormy Dragon at August 2nd, 2007
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>Decades of “taxes and government are evil”
>rhetoric has lead to a situation where not
>enough money is invested to maintain our
>struggling infrastructure.
Given that government spending is currently the highest it has ever been in raw terms and the highest it’s been since WWII in percentage terms, is the lack of infrastructure funding a result of resitance to increased taxes or grossly misplaced spending priorities?
Taxes could double tomorrow and our infrastructure would still be aging, because it would still be easier to delay infrastructure projects (bridges rarely have large constituency groups) and spend the money buying votes in more social giveaways.
#18 by John H at August 2nd, 2007
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I heard an interview with the Governor on NPR this afternoon. He said all of the recent inspections found problems with the bridge. So why didn’t he do something? It sound to me like Pawlenty should possibly be charged with negligent homicide.
#19 by tgirsch at August 2nd, 2007
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Marshall:
The problem with the “streetcar” theory is that it only works where it can be profitable; and the problem with that presumes that everything that’s worth doing can best be done explicitly for profit. Universal education will never be profitable, ever. Yet it’s worth doing. The same is true for transportation infrastructure. The airlines are going bankrupt left and right, even though they don’t have to pay for any of their infrastructure.
Stormy:
Can you back up those numbers? I don’t doubt the “raw terms” number, as that’s totally meaningless anyway. But spending as a percentage of GDP? I suppose once you factor in the war and interest on the ever-growing national debt [but don't blame deficits! Just ask Uncle!], that might push the numbers fairly high.
Recall, too, that in this context it’s a state issue, so what’s most relevant is where Minnesota’s spending levels are.
#20 by tgirsch at August 2nd, 2007
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Just looked it up (page 6 here). As a percentage of GDP, federal spending is currently the highest it’s been under the Bush Administration, but it’s a far cry from “highest since WWII.” As I recall, Reagan was the poster child for cutting government, and yet spending was higher every year during his administration than where it is now. In fact, as I look at it, spending was higher under Reagan than at any other time since 1962, as far back as the chart goes.
So on what basis are you saying that spending is “the highest it’s been since WWII in percentage terms?” That turns out not to be even close to true.
#21 by floopmeister at August 2nd, 2007
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Maybe the US should ask for development aid from the UN?
Or a loan from the IMF?
#22 by Stormy Dragon at August 2nd, 2007
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tgirsch, I’m sure you can find it with google in about 30 seconds just like I did.
#23 by Dan G. at August 2nd, 2007
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Kevin,
First, I apologize if I was abrasive and unclear.
Second, having the tax dollars to spend on fixing the bridge would not have made fixing that particular bridge a priority at the present time. The consensus of the state and local governments, Republican and Democrat alike, was that the bridge was not in immediate need of repair. As the news reports have been saying, a structurally deficient bridge does not mean it is unsafe or in need of immediate repair. If a bridge were “functionally obsolete” then it would need to be immediately replaced.
#24 by St. Paul at August 2nd, 2007
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So seek accountability after the bodies are recoverd, or maybe after the funerals, or perhaps in November when the families have had time to grieve, or in 6 months when emotions are not so raw, then a year has passed and you don’t want to blame anyone during the tragic anniversary, so you wait and wait for a more appropriate time that never seems to come.
The longer you delay seeking accountability the less likely you are to get any.
#25 by J from Wpg at August 3rd, 2007
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It’s worth checking out the March 1993 issue of Scientific American for “Why America’s Bridges are Crumbling”; by Kenneth F. Dunker and Basile G. Rabbat; 7 Page(s) (see http://www.sciamdigital.com/index.cfm?fa=Products.ViewIssuePreview&ARTICLEID_CHAR=1978C614-F02D-4C9B-8430-D75EB5C571D)
The article isn’t available on-line, but if I recall it correctly, the blame for “America’s Crumbling Infrastructure” is placed squarely on penny-pinching politicians who cancel routine annual maintenance to save money. The article points out that structures that should last twenty years before major rebuilding is required will fail after as little as seven years if not maintained properly.
#26 by Big U at August 3rd, 2007
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Okay poster St. Paul, here goes.
*rant on*
1. Blame the guys who did the actual inspection. They should be fired and sued because obviously they did not clearly identify the fact that the bridge would collapse in the near term.
2. Blame the politicians (all of them, not just the governor) from the past 20 years because obviously they have not been doing their jobs properly. They should all be sued and not allowed to continue in politics.
3. Blame the crew that was resurfacing the bridge at the time of the collapse. Why? Because clearly the repairs they were doing loosened something on the bridge causing it to collapse.
4. Blame the guys who scheduled the repairs because they should have known that resurfacing was not the priority. They should have known exactly where the structural weakness was and fixed that instead. Oh wait, the inspectors failed to catch the seriousness of the problem so I guess they’re off the hook.
5. Blame the Minnesota DOT because obviously they don’t know what they are doing or they would have closed the bridge last year or sooner.
6. Blame the people that mess with the Mississippi River because obviously they did something that contributed to the river damaging the support structure which led to the collapse.
Yup, let’s blame someone because then we can all feel better. In fact, let’s spend the next 10 years figuring out who to blame instead of doing the intelligent thing and trying to prevent the same thing happening to another bridge. Because if done right, millions can be spent on government committees to figure out who to blame and millions if not billions can be spent on lawsuits. After all, that is the whole point isn’t it? Someone needs to take the fall. Someone needs to be blamed. Because then everyone can feel safe that the person responsible (seems people are leaning toward government reps) is out of the equation and that will make all the bridges better.
*rant off*
Seems to me that blaming Bush/Rumsfeld et.al. hasn’t saved one single soldier’s life in Iraq. So tell me how focusing on who to blame regarding this bridge will do anything. People want to do something smart? They should be using this tragedy to pound home the importance of bridge and infrastructure inspections and demand action from their politicians and civil employees on that front. Let the inspectors determine what went wrong, then let the investigation into who was at fault start.
Kevin, feel free to delete this if you want. I just wanted to get it out of my system. Sorry if I offended anyone.
#27 by Dwyre at August 3rd, 2007
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Unless you are convinced the bridge collapsing was an act of a wrathful god, then someone, somewhere (or more likely multiple parties on multiple occasions) made a choice that hastened the failure. Finding out what choices or actions lead to the failure is the first step in making sure it doesn’t happen again.
#28 by Kevin at August 3rd, 2007
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Dan G
No apologies neccesary, its a sensitive topic. And I should apologize for losing my temper in the response.
If the recent budget priorities had nothing to do with this, then I accept that. But when I wrote this post, Pawletny had just said something false, we know that we have been underfunding infrastructure in this country for a long time in large part because of anti-tax anti-government ideology, and we know that Pawlenty is a believer in that ideology and has acted on that in a manner that directly affects this issue. Even if the recent budget would not have affected repairs on this bridge, we have to ask the question in order to find out the answer, and we have to ask if the recent budget decisions will make something like this more likely down the road. We know now that governments have been patching that bridge since 1990 — and we know that at least some of that was because they didn’t want to spend the money to do a complete job. So, in a sense, reluctance to raise taxes or make a big government project the centerpiece of an Administration did help contribute to the mess.
Big U
Actually, I understand your rant. I felt like that after VA shooting. But we have to have accountability and we cannot have accountability without asking these questions n the window that the media pays attention to these issues. While blaming Bush has yet to save a single Iraqi/Us soldier, it has made that more likely. Because people wanted to hold the Bush Admin accountable for its actions in Iraq, we have a Democratic congress working –badly, and in fits and starts — towards ending this war. Because the Jersey Wives demanded accountability, we now have a better idea of what went wrong and right on 9/11 and a blueprint for making corrections and improvements. That doesn’t happen if they don’t break through the “asking questions is just playing the blame game” nonsense.
#29 by Stormy Dragon at August 3rd, 2007
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tgirsch:
Okay, ‘near the highest’, happy? My point was that there hasn’t been the huge decline in spending you’re claiming; we’ve been jittering around 20% for a while now. This is quite a bit higher than the rate in the 50’s and 60’s. You have to go back to WWII (when it spiked to about 46% of GDP) to find a period when it was significantly higher.
Big U:
>1. Blame the guys who did the actual
>inspection. They should be fired and sued
>because obviously they did not clearly
>identify the fact that the bridge would
>collapse in the near term.
That assumes there was such evidence to be identified at the time of the last of the inspection. It is possible for metal to fatigue without showing obvious outwards signs like cracking.
>3. Blame the crew that was resurfacing the
>bridge at the time of the collapse. Why?
>Because clearly the repairs they were
>doing loosened something on the bridge
>causing it to collapse.
Ad hoc, ergo propter hoc.
#30 by Big U at August 3rd, 2007
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Stormy, I’m assuming you didn’t understand the sarcasm in my post.
#31 by Donut at August 3rd, 2007
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“Seems to me that blaming Bush/Rumsfeld et.al. hasn’t saved one single soldier’s life in Iraq.”
ah, but if perhaps more people had listened to those who were trying to point out the problems in the first place, those soldiers would not have died. I know I am straying from topic, but to say that Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/Rice, etc. are NOT to blame for the Iraq war dead (including those Iraqi civilians no one mentions) is laughable at best.
#32 by digglahhh at August 3rd, 2007
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One, while it is probably true that throwing money around wouldn’t have necessarily prevented the tragedy, that doesn’t mean that setting aside a proper budget for infrastructure shouldn’t be a requirement. That’s a retroactive justification, defining an action by one that (presumably) directly follows it and is dependent upon it. It is a political version of “sour grapes.”
Two, this utter and total bullshit about not asking questions until the grief has past and what not is just a bunch of political, pseudo-P.C., manipulative rhetoric.
I knew people who died in 9/11, so fuck you self-righteous politico, I can ask whatever fucking questions I want, whenever I damn well feel like it. The only thing that is offensive is the passing off of the dodging of serious issues as some sort of sensitivity and moral high ground. It is your right to know these answers, and it is to their benefit to not confront the questions, if you respect this artificial sensitivity, you are playing their game. They are the ones hiding behind the tragedy, advancing their causes by exploiting real people whose lives the tragedy really touched.
Shit, after this, I bet the CIA ops who murdered Wellstone won’t have to buy a drink for a year…
#33 by tgirsch at August 3rd, 2007
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The CIA murdered Wellstone? I seem to have misplaced my tinfoil hat…
Stormy:
It’s a red herring anyway, because it’s not a question of total spending, but also of the type of spending you’re doing. In the context of Interstate Highway bridges, it’s a question of adjusted dollars per mile. At the end of the day, whether or not there’s waste in other areas of government, there was either sufficient spending to maintain safe highways, or there wasn’t.
As a side note, correction against GDP isn’t an ideal metric in this case, because the needs of the populace (and therefore, the tasks required of government) don’t necessarily correlate to GDP. Infrastructure needs maintenance and we need national defense irrespective of how well the economy is doing.
#34 by Dan G. at August 3rd, 2007
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Kevin,
You are right, it takes money to maintain an infrastructure and years of tax and slash policy have contributed to the poor condition of our roads. I’m not disputing you on this point. What I’m disputing is the narrow claim that it is the Pawlenty administration that we should be holding accountable. There are a number of things that could have been done prior to the installation of the current administration that would have prevented the disaster; the fact that catastophe happened on Pawlenty’s watch shouldn’t make him a convenient scape goat.
Honestly, I don’t think there is enough information to pin the blame on anybody at this point. In the end, Pawlenty could very well be culpable for the collapse of the bridge; however, lets not jump to conclusions at this point until we have all the information.
#35 by Ted at August 3rd, 2007
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Tgirsch, I applaud your last remark re GDP. I was about to make a similar one myself. Perhaps one of our past debates served a purpose
#36 by digglahhh at August 3rd, 2007
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The CIA murdered Wellstone? I seem to have misplaced my tinfoil hat
I guess we’ll never know for sure. But, to me, it remains a distinct possibility. I’m not about to hi-jack the thread though.
#37 by tgirsch at August 3rd, 2007
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Ted:
Maybe. Just because GDP isn’t great for this purpose doesn’t mean it’s useless for all purposes.
(Nah, let’s not go there again…)
#38 by Tom the Patriot at August 3rd, 2007
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The purpose of starting to the article with ‘heavily tattooed’ is to marginalize the guy, to put him and his ideas out of the mainstream for the NYTs readers. Like commenting on a woman’s dress if she dares to run for president. Tattoos ID him as the 2000 equivalent of the 1970s ‘crazy longhaired hippy’. Thus, readers are told to pigeonhole him and dismiss anything he might actually say or mean. The mainstream media did the same thing recently to Hillary Clinton, talking about her cleavage as a major story, and Edward’s haircuts before that. The actually insane right wing (who might want to bomb Mecca, make women get permission from men for abortions, bomb Iran, etc.) are never demeaned by descriptions of physical appearance. This is why the mainstream media are called ‘gate-keepers’ - to keep certain people, their ideas or opinions from the general public and ever entering the public discourse.
#39 by Dan M. at August 3rd, 2007
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Tom the Patriot,
What tattoos are you talking about? Isn’t this thread about the Minnesota bridge that went out?
#40 by frolix22 at August 4th, 2007
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Simplistic view perhaps but… America is the richest nation on the face of the planet. It should be able to afford to maintain its infrastructure to the extent that it should never, ever have any major infrastructure deficiencies.
What I mean is, even getting into a situation where there is a suspicion of a structural deficiency in a major bridge that goes unaddressed speaks of a deeper problem in the way the economy and the political system is functioning. I am not saying that this is unique to America, I would say that the wealthy European economies are broadly the same. That America is so much wealthier even than the rich European nations just makes it all the more ridiculous.
Actually, I said perhaps it was a simplistic view when in fact I think it is just that it is so blindingly obvious that makes me think it is simplistic. It is in reality just a basic observation.
#41 by Nathan Wolfe at August 8th, 2007
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Hello, I’m a first time visitor. After reading your post and the following conversation, I think what has been failed to be mentioned is that this bridge is 40 years old and the lack of basic upkeep begins well before the Pawlenty administration. Not that I’m saying he shouldn’t be at least castrated for vetoing a bill to increase road repair funds twice, but in that case he’s only as guilty as everyone else in the Minnesota government who helped contribute to the lack of infrastructure funding over the past 4 decades.
Some commentators have stated that there’s no need to raise taxes to ensure upkeep and that spending priorities are simply being mismanaged. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I bet that in Minnesota, like here in Texas, new roads get priority. That’s what the voters want and it makes them happy. And of course, government is supposed to conform to the will of the people. You’re not going to find too many private citizens who complained that the new projects sucked money from upkeep on the old. The point is, this cycle has gone on for a very long time.
All the politicians who took money away from infrastructure during that time are to blame, not just Pawlenty. And there should be more concerned citizens. This bridge collapse should not be the point at which citizens realize their roads are old and crumbling.
#42 by Lian fang at August 10th, 2007
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Bad news! What you have talking about are all reasonable!
#43 by author at September 3rd, 2008
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Time is running out for my friend. While we are sitting at lunch she casually mentions she and her husband are thinking of starting a family. earnest“We’re taking a survey,”she says, half-joking. “Do you think I should have a boat?” “It will change your li
#44 by FX at September 11th, 2008
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#45 by est 為替 at September 11th, 2008
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Que d’amalgame ! Je suis triste de lire ses réactions qui sont pour la plus grande majorité agressives et violentes. Tout compte fait Sarko 為替 peut clarifier les relations entre la France et l’Afrique et les rendre plus simpled et débarassées de leur infantilisme et opacité comme cela est le cas depuis 50 ans. Par ailleurs, savez-vous que la diaspora africaine est certainement plus source de développement pour le continent que l’aide publique au développement. Il est important que les élites africaines puissent travailler dans les pays éco dits développés. Mais avec l’esprit un jour de révinstir le continent en capitaux et en compétences. Et là la balle est dans notre camp. Alors Sarko ne doit pas être une péoccupation pour nous, mais cela peut nous aider à nous FX remettre davantage en question et éviter d’attendre tout de l’autre, de cette France paternaliste qui nous a plus desservie. Alors oui je souhaite une relation décomplexée où l’on peut tout se dire et où l’on me reconnnaitra pour mes compétences et savoirs-faire et non comme un bon africain docile et maléable. Sarko peut représenter cela. Désolé mais Zedess se trompe de combat.
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