Afraid to Pick On Someone Her Own Size
Oct 11
Ezra throws down the gauntlet, and Malkin runs away. Twelve year olds, apparently, are more her level of competition. Though, frankly, I am not sure I blame her. Based on her comments in the Times article about the attack on this family, Malkin’s argument is basically that no one should get any help until they are completely destitute:
But Michelle Malkin, one of the bloggers who have strongly criticized the Frosts, insisted Republicans should hold their ground and not pull punches.
“The bottom line here is that this family has considerable assets,” Ms. Malkin wrote in an e-mail message. “Maryland’s S-chip program does not means-test. The refusal to do assets tests on federal health insurance programs is why federal entitlements are exploding and government keeps expanding. If Republicans don’t have the guts to hold the line, they deserve to lose their seats.”
In Malkin’s world, you should sell your business, sell your home and then when that’s not enough to pay your severely injured children’s medical bills, because it wont be, then and only then can we consider giving you some help. That wrong morally and practically. The Frost’s as a family have been exemplary members of our society. They have worked hard, tried to start their own business, own a home, and done everything they could to improve the lives of their children. They have done everything we have asked of them, and Malkin still wants to leave them destitute and homeless because of a moments bad luck.
Morally, that’s disgusting: you should not have to reduce a person to pauper-y and abject destitution before you deign to assist him. That reeks of viciousness and a clueless sense of privilege unworthy of even the Medicis. Taking away everything a person has, destroying the dreams they have worked for, and eliminating options and possibilities for their children is despicable, especially when the cost of help is so small and the rewards are so large.
As a practical matter, pauperizing people like the Frosts is equally stupid. They are hardworking people who contribute to our economy and our community. Destroying the financially only serves to weaken both for no good reason. If the private insurance market cannot serve these people — and there is no doubt that it cannot serve large swathes of the working and middle class in this country — then it makes sense for the government to step in. The amount we spend on that kind of insurance is a pittance compared to the benefits we receive in return. Families stay together, children get the help they need to lean normal lives, small business owners aren’t forced out of business, and the ranks of the homeless are not increased. When the middle class and working people are provided with the security they need to ride out bad times, they repay society a hundred times over through their contributions to the our economy, culture, and neighborhoods. Frankly, I find it hard to beleive that anyone could argue otherwise with a straight face.
If the choice is between destroying lives or spending a small amount to help people survive health related catastrophes, I think the choice is clear. So, too, does Malkin. Perhaps that is why she is running screaming from the thought of having to face down a health care expert like Ezra Klein.
#1 by DoItToJulia at October 11th, 2007
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Everyone getting assistance from the American government should at first be destitute and , preferably dying in the gutters… except for corporations and their subsidies and tax breaks.
Ban socialized medicine!, and while we’re at it eliminate free education - that’s socialism, too. Only those with means should prosper! Never trust anyone making under $100,000 a year! Soylent Green for everybody!!
#2 by Morris at October 11th, 2007
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What other financial setbacks should the government protect us from? Why should a person not have to dispose of his assets to pay his bills? Why should other people pay the medical bills of someone who refuses to sell his assests? If I have a beachhouse, why should the government pay to rebuild it? No, wait, that’s a bad example. The govt already does that.
#3 by tgirsch at October 11th, 2007
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Morris:
Yes, because “every man for himself” has SUCH a stellar history of success…
#4 by Morris at October 11th, 2007
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Why should the assests of one family be taken to give to a family who will not sell its own assests to pay their bills?
#5 by LarryE at October 11th, 2007
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Morris -
When I read your first comment I thought you were being sarcastic, since at the end you appeared to embrace the idea of the government paying to rebuild your beachhouse if it gets damaged. But since you repeated the question, I have to assume you’re serious. So you want to know why? Here are a few reasons:
Because we are a society, not a mass of disconnected individuals. Because as a society, we have adopted the idea that all people are entitled to the basis necessities of life and a standard of living adequate to that end. Because we have determined that it is wrong for a family to be financially devastated by chances of fate. Because people should not have to choose between food and medicine, between clothing and rent. Because the third of FDR’s “Four Freedoms” is
freedom from want - which, translated into universal terms, means economic understandings which will secure to every nation a healthy peacetime life for its inhabitants - everywhere in the world,
which, we can safely assume, includes here. Because
We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Because requiring people to strip themselves bare before obtaining help in unjust. Because demanding they do so is simple selfishness of an “I/me/mine” type that we should have outgrown in Kindergarten. Because “love your neighbor as yourself” is the second great commandment.
Because it’s right.
#6 by DoItToJulia at October 11th, 2007
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Why should my assets be taken away to wage a war with no foreseeable end?
Why should my assets be handed over to “private security companies” who murder in my name in a foreign land?
Nobody asked me how I wanted my taxes spent, but giving money to help American families overcome the burden of a sick child without rendering them homeless is quite possibly the least disgraceful way in which our government has spent my tax dollars.
#7 by tgirsch at October 11th, 2007
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LarryE:
Ohh, snap!
Morris:
Unless you’re an anarchist, there are certain costs that we as a society decide ought to be shared, for the betterment of society as a whole. As LarryE points out, most of us recognize that financial ruin as a result of a medical emergency is not only unjust, but also detrimental to more people than just those who are directly effected.
I also object to your characterization of “taking assets away” — we pay for most things by taxing income, not assets. And even those assets that are taxed (e.g., property) are not “taken away.” Nobody seriously argues that person A should lose his or her home so that person B could have one; that’s what taking away assets would look like.
#8 by Morris at October 12th, 2007
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“recognize that financial ruin as a result of a medical emergency is not only unjust, but also detrimental to more people than just those who are directly effected.”
Why limit this to medical emergencies? Financial emergencies for other reasons are just as detrimental to families.
“I also object to your characterization of “taking assets away” — we pay for most things by taxing income, not assets.”
Money you earn is not an asset? You need to rethink that one.
#9 by digglahhh at October 12th, 2007
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What is so difficult to understand about the idea that refusing to help care for those in just defers the cost to a later date, and increasing the actual cost in the process?
If we force people to reach the point of destitution before we consider affording help, then the problems that arise from destitution grow. Drug dependence/crime, homelessness… These are problems the public ends up paying for in way or another anyway.
Not only is an ounce of prevention worth a pound of cure, but a pound of prevention is cheaper than an ounce of cure!
What does it take for people to understand that health is a public issue?
#10 by Morris at October 12th, 2007
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“What is so difficult to understand about the idea that refusing to help care for those in just defers the cost to a later date, and increasing the actual cost in the process?
If we force people to reach the point of destitution before we consider affording help, then the problems that arise from destitution grow. Drug dependence/crime, homelessness… These are problems the public ends up paying for in way or another anyway.”
How far should we go in helping people who have large financial losses for non-health reasons? Isn’t it just as harmful for children to lose everything due to business losses, fire, robbery, ect.? Why don’t we just make everyone whole who has a loss and not require them to sell their car, boat, or cash in their IRAs? A chicken in every pot and two cars in every garage. Life happens. Don’t require anyone to sell assets. He might go on drugs.
#11 by digglahhh at October 12th, 2007
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If you fall asleep with a lit cigarette and burn your house down, that is your fault. If somebody burns down your house, that is arson - it is a crime. You can sue, etc.
Fire insurance is not a necessity the way medical insurance is. Sickness is inevitable, and a medical tragedy is not something that is generally viewed as the fault of an individual or family (leaving aside for now, the more contentious issues like lung cancer in smokers). Also, are you trying to compare the cost of fire insurance on your apartment to the cost of health insurance for a family.
Robbery too is a crime.
These are not in the same class as chronic, debilitating disease.
Apples to oranges, grasping for straws, strawman, hyperbolized hypotheticals…
Pick any of the above general criticisms of disingenuously naive, practically-devoid, ideologically-driven arguments. They all apply to your previous post.
#12 by tgirsch at October 12th, 2007
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Morris:
Why limit this to medical emergencies? Financial emergencies for other reasons are just as detrimental to families.
It shouldn’t come as a surprise to you that I wouldn’t so limit it. When people find themselves in a bind with respect to not only health, but also food, clothing, shelter, and employment, public assistance is a good long-term investment. And indeed, we do collectively provide public assistance in all of those areas, even if some would argue that we do too much and others that we do too little.
This isn’t to say that we should bail out Donald Trump when he goes bankrupt (again). But if even he were to find himself in a situation where he had a medical emergency he couldn’t pay for, I would offer him the same level of public assistance that we offer to the destitute guy.
Finally, nobody’s arguing that we shouldn’t require people to have some measure of financial responsibility, even to the point of selling assets to make ends meet. What we are arguing is that they shouldn’t have to sell themselves into financial ruin, and that it’s better for the economy as a whole and society as a whole if we prevent that from happening.
If a family goes into bankruptcy because of a medical emergency, we all collectively share those costs, and that family becomes a much less productive entity in our economy. If we provide assistance, they continue paying income and property taxes, and over the long term that ripple effect far outweighs the cost of assistance. There are certainly exceptions, but in the aggregate, there’s little doubt that this holds true.
#13 by Morris at October 13th, 2007
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tg: “This isn’t to say that we should bail out Donald Trump when he goes bankrupt (again). But if even he were to find himself in a situation where he had a medical emergency he couldn’t pay for, I would offer him the same level of public assistance that we offer to the destitute guy.”
You’re joking. Right?
#14 by Morris at October 13th, 2007
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“Fire insurance is not a necessity the way medical insurance is.”
Tell your mortgage company that.
“Sickness is inevitable,”
Really?
” and a medical tragedy is not something that is generally viewed as the fault of an individual or family”
I get it now. As long as a financial disaster is not my fault, you should pay for it, and I should be able to maintain my previous lifetstyle without divesting myself of assests. Be ready to back up your words the next time I have a finacial problem.
#15 by Matt at October 14th, 2007
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I get it now. As long as a financial disaster is not my fault, you should pay for it, and I should be able to maintain my previous lifetstyle without divesting myself of assests. Be ready to back up your words the next time I have a finacial problem.
Interesting use of the “hasty generalization” fallacy.
#16 by digglahhh at October 15th, 2007
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I do back up my talk, Morris.
I pay taxes!
And, yes, sickness is inevitable!
Are you under the impression that you are immortal?…
#17 by Morris at October 16th, 2007
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“I do back up my talk, Morris.
I pay taxes!”
That’s the liberal way: Force others to support your charity.
#18 by digglahhh at October 16th, 2007
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I don’t even know what that means.
If you were destitute and needed public assistance, they means by which the money that would be paid out to you would be collected would be via taxes. I pay taxes, therefore, the answer to your request that I put my money where my mouth is that I do. Were you under the impression that supporting such social welfare programs implies that I’m supposed to just go door to door with my wallet handing out cash to people who can’t afford their medical bills?
And, allow me to parrot and adapt your above platitude:
That’s the conservative way, force me to support your war-mongering.
Look, you can’t just select individual programs that taxes fund that you disagree with, and then call the taxation system some sort of liberal conspiracy to get you to pay for those programs. Every single person can find uses of their tax dollars that they object to - it doesn’t make any of those programs a conspiracy (well, except for the military industrial complex).
But in any case, if you are so interested in divesting yourself of your assets, let me know. I can arrange a lovely tour of Astoria Projects at about 3:00 AM for ya…
#19 by Morris at October 16th, 2007
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“If you were destitute and needed public assistance, they means by which the money that would be paid out to you would be collected would be via taxes.”
You must have missed the post where I said I approve of helping the helpless with public assistance. A disabled person with no ability to help himself should receive help. As a society that is our responsibility. I have no idea where you got the idea that I was opposed to it.
#20 by tgirsch at October 16th, 2007
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Morris:
And you must have missed the part where we argued that it’s better for a society as a whole if we don’t wait for someone to become absolutely destitute before we offer them public assistance. Rather than forcing them into the poor house before we help them, isn’t it better to keep them out of the poor house in the first place? It’s really not as complicated as you’re making it.
#21 by Morris at October 16th, 2007
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“It’s really not as complicated as you’re making it.”
I’m not making it complicated. I believe that a person who has no way to help himself should be helped. A person who has the ability to help himself should do so. Nothing complicated about that.
How far do you go in helping those who have their own assets with which to help themselves? Should we have covered the losses of those who lost their life savings at Enron?
#22 by Morris at October 18th, 2007
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It is shameful for someone to take a little boy who cannot understand what he is saying and give him a script to read attacking the opponents of the excessive increase in SCHIP. It borders on child abuse.