Atheists in the Foxholes
Posted by
tgirsch
The US Department of Defense is being sued by an Iraq veteran who claims that the US military has become a de facto Christian organization:
His sudden lack of faith, he said, cost him his military career and put his life at risk. Hall said his life was threatened by other troops and the military assigned a full-time bodyguard to protect him out of fear for his safety.
In March, Hall filed a federal lawsuit against the U.S. Department of Defense and Secretary of Defense Robert Gates, among others. In the suit, Hall claims his rights to religious freedom under the First Amendment were violated and suggests that the United States military has become a Christian organization.
“I think it’s utterly and totally wrong. Unconstitutional,” Hall said.
Hall said there is a pattern of discrimination against non-Christians in the military.
Two years ago on Thanksgiving Day, after refusing to pray at his table, Hall said he was told to go sit somewhere else. In another incident, when he was nearly killed during an attack on his Humvee, he said another soldier asked him, “Do you believe in Jesus now?”
Hall isn’t seeking compensation in his lawsuit — just the guarantee of religious freedom in the military. Eventually, Hall was sent home early from Iraq and later returned to Fort Riley in Junction City, Kansas, to complete his tour of duty.
He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.
“I was told because I can’t put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn’t make a good leader,” Hall said.
Michael Weinstein, a retired senior Air Force officer and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, is suing along with Hall. Weinstein said he’s been contacted by more than 8,000 members of the military, almost all of them complaining of pressure to embrace evangelical Christianity.
[Emphasis mine.]
If true, that’s absolutely unconscionable. It’s apparently not enough that someone is willing to put their life on the line for their country. They have to pray to the right God, too. Eight thousand complaints. Eight thousand, coming not just from atheists, I’m sure, but from Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc.
With the current state of military recruitment, I don’t think we can afford to discriminate against people, or refuse them promotions, or turn them away, just because their religious affiliation isn’t the “right” one (or they won’t “play nice” and pretend to have the “right” one). We should be accepting every loyal, able-bodied person we can get.
Devoutly religious people wonder why people like me object to their insistence on injecting their religion into all areas of public life. This is precisely why I object. When religion starts to become a tool for exclusion, for dividing “us” and “them” in areas having nothing to do with religion, it’s gone way too far. Better not to even start down that road.
Atheists will be the last minority to be accepted in the USA.
It’s apparent that religion is continuing to have far too much influence in areas that are at their best when untainted by theology: government, science and ethics.
As soon as you permit theology to influence these areas, you subject them to distortion and degradation. Many other developed countries have applied this idea quite successfully to their non-religious pursuits, but here in America, we can justify and tolerate torture, indefinite detention and execution, not to mention suffering an utter lack of ethics in the actions and intentions of our elected leadership.
Comment 7/8/2008
Now I’m confused. It says in this link that he filed a suit in September 2007. Is this a new lawsuit? Also, does the military allow Christian groups to distribute flyers announcing and organizing meetings?
Seems to be more than meets the eye here.
Comment 7/9/2008
As my Marine buddies like to remind me, it’s god, corps, country. In that order. Always struck me as a bit scary.
Comment 7/9/2008
“As my Marine buddies like to remind me, it’s god, corps, country. In that order. Always struck me as a bit scary. ”
And my family always wondered why, after news reports like this and those coming out of the air force academy, I ceased having any interest in joining the military.
Comment 7/9/2008
I pray that whatever it is that has jaded your thoughts on God and the sacrifice He made by sending Jesus to die for us is made clear to you that you are loved, you were included in the John 3:16 that everyone talks about…You can’t hold what a “mere” human says or does against God…that is the same as those who are racist saying that all of one race is bad…either they’ve been taught that or they’ve had a couple of sour experiences with so called Christians…look at the polls about 92 percent of Americans considering themselves Christians and then look at the actions being taken…it doesn’t add up…I am sorry you have been judged, but to make it perfectly clear, Christians don’t have the job of judging, only God has that right…I love you all in Christ…God Bless
Comment 7/9/2008
Gig4, there is nothing “mere” about humans. We are the dominate species on this planet. It is our humanity, compassion and love for our fellow man which has sustained human society throughout the ages. People are the engine of this world, not some supernatural sky deity. People can perform good acts and people can perform bad acts, but to try to credit some mythological being for the acts of humans is escapist and removes accountability.
Comment 7/9/2008
Gig4:
look at the polls about 92 percent of Americans considering themselves Christians and then look at the actions being taken
Actually, it’s only about 76% Christian, not 92%. And as for people in the military engaging in group prayer, pressuring others to join them, and ostracizing those who don’t, well they’ve obviously forgotten Matt 6.
Christians don’t have the job of judging, only God has that right
Which is why devout Christians should be at least as outraged at what the military is doing, and at least as interested in putting a stop to it.
Big U:
Were you intending to include a link to something else? I didn’t initially see where you were getting the September 2007 date, but I did some googling, however, and found this. I’m not sure what happened to the original suit (filed in September 2007), but it appears as though they did indeed file a new suit in March.
Comment 7/9/2008
But I cannot be outraged at the entire military over the bad decisions of a select few…I am not proud of those that ostricised him, if you look in the Gospels, matthew mark luke John, the reflection that matches is the fact that Jesus did hang out with those that were less desireable to the “pharisees” the “religious group” of that time..and what did Jesus respond when He heard this question? “Why does your teacher eat with such scum(NLT - Matthew 9:10-13)” Boldly He said “healthy people don’t need a doctor - sick people do” then He quoted old testament scripture about showing mercy as opposed to offering sacrifices for “I have come to call not those who think they are righteous, but those who know they are sinners”
So with that being said, I can’t say that the officers that moved him to another table, serve the same Jesus (the one true Jesus who was God in the flesh)as I serve…we are told to love the Lord our God with all our heart and soul and strengh and mind and to love others as we love ourselves…this is true Christ following…and I guess it depends on the survey you read as to the percentages you get…but either way…that is a high percentage of talk and a REALLY low percentage of walk…which is what matters…and truthfully in the scriptures it tells us that Jesus Christ is all that matters anyway (Colossians 3:11)
God bless y’all…from a true follower (not perfect in any way, but forgiven by grace alone) in NC!
Comment 7/9/2008
One reason I never joined the military - Serving my country is one thing, but being buried with a cross over my head that I dont want is asking too much.
Comment 7/9/2008
tgirsch:
And I understand the Mattew 6 reference…but there has to be an understanding that doing things in public for the attention is one thing, doing them in public to simply revernce God is another…when we go out to eat, my family and I always grab hands and pray over the meal…it is not a show for others, it is simply us giving thanks for the provisions God has made for us…if others look on, it is their perception to take it how they will, but God knows my heart and knows that I am not just flamboyantly putting out there that I am a Christian everybody look at me, you know…and i witness often but it is more through my actions than it is words…I witness with words when the Spirit lays something on my heart for a particular person…and also through encouraging words and efforts…knowing that there is nothing I can DO to get into heaven, but knowing that it is only by grace which is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8)I just want more people to have the same relationship as the one I have that is offered to all for the asking…
Comment 7/9/2008
Cyndi,
thanks for the reply, and I want you to know that the only reason we are the dominant force in the earth is because God set it up that way, that is outlined in the Bible…I know alot of people find fault in the Bible, but alot of people are reading it just for that reason, and that is why it doesn’t speak to some…in the grand scheme of things, we are truly nothing without the Spirit of God…the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead…This is His plan and the part we play in it is soul fishing…by use of the great commission applied by Jesus on His departure…we are important in the fact that we were created in the image and likeness of God, but other than that, all glory goes to the Creator…When I look at others, I have a hard time seeing much greatness in flesh as it will pass away, but look in on the spirit and soul of the person…it tells me in the Word that God will never abandon nor forsake me so I can say with boldness The Lord is my helper, what can mere man do to me? NLT Hebrews 13:5-6…2 Cronicles 14:11 “…oh Lord, You are our God; do not let mere men prevail against you”…and then it show the importance of God’s knowledge of us in Job 7:17 “What are mere mortals, that You should make so much of us?” Psalms 8:4 & 9:19 & 56:4 Romans 9:20 “…who are you, a mere human being to criticize God? …”
there are several other places…but i will let you find them if you want to do the research…I hope you do…
And here is my point…I am mere man…test all I say to the written Word of God…again, I am mere man…I think myself as less than any of you out of the pure humility granted to me by God so don’t think I am preaching at you or judging you…we are all here on this earth making our journeys…I happened to grasp that my existence is not just in vain or part of a big bang…but more of the reason that God’s will is that NO man/woman should perish (2 peter 3:9)it says “The Lord isn’t really being slow about His promise to return, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so He is giving more time for everyone to repent.”
Please any of you reading this, do yourself a favor and read through this with an open mind and see that this is not just some book of ancient “stories” but an outline to the world we live in not only from an historical point of view but of a current worldview…
Love y’all! God bless Cyndi!
Comment 7/9/2008
Yep. After about 7 paragraphs of it, I’m convinced Gig4 has no compulsion to impose her religion on others.
Comment 7/9/2008
To be fair, I think “Gig4″ is a “he,” and I don’t think discussing his religion in an open forum amounts to an imposition. He’s on the record in opposition to the Army’s treatment, even if gently so.
Trying to make the case for your point of view (even if we don’t think it’s a very strong case) is hardly the same thing as harassing someone who expresses a differing view.
Comment 7/9/2008
My point (if I had one) was that I could care less what the bible says about this. In this country, we have this concept called separation of church and state. So quoting from the bible to justify or defend or even counter the initial claim is about as relevant as me quoting the maintenance manual for my dishwasher. It just does not matter.
Comment 7/9/2008
On that point, I’m squarely in your corner.
Comment 7/9/2008
Actually, your dishwasher manual probably is factually acturate and germain to cleanliness. That makes it a lot more relevent to any aspect of reality than ancient scribblings about magic and the undead.
Comment 7/10/2008
I hope you all have a great day! And yeah I’m a he
and as far as the replies to my posts, it is not up to me to add fluff or anything else to the Scripture…they speak for themselves…I also know that all I have written is not in vain and know it was of help to someone reading this thread…Y’all have a blessed day…and if you are reading this you woke up on the right side of the dirt…that was no coincidence 
Y’all can sit at my table any day.
Comment 7/10/2008
Ted,
Make that the manual for your fire extinguisher and you might be able to reply to two threads at once!
Comment 7/10/2008
digg, there are certain things that should not have manuals. Fire extinguishers certainly are one of them
Comment 7/10/2008
I don’t have a fire extinguisher so I wouldn’t know Ted. I figure, if my place ever bursts into flame, I will put out the blaze by repeatedly firing my uzi at it.
Comment 7/11/2008
I have served in the United States Army for eleven years and prior to that, four years as a cadet at West Point. In those 15 years in uniform, I cannot think of one instance in which a superior officer compelled me to attend religious services or to convert. In fact, pressure from non-military neighbors, friends, and acquaintances to go to such and such church happens regularly. That same tradition of separation of church and state allows and encourages followers of whatever religion to talk about faith.
The Army faces many challenges in this matter and does its best to handle them fairly. Catholic priests from local communities serve mass if a Catholic chaplain is not available. Muslim and Jewish soldiers on smaller posts often attend services off of the installation. In my experience, commanders, with the help of their staff chaplains - of whatever faith - help soldiers find the answers to their spiritual needs.
I once investigated an allegation of religious discrimination. After interviewing the victim, the commander, and Soldiers in the same workplace, I was confused. How could a reasonable boss and a hard-working subordinate (both combat veterans) arrive at such a place? The answer was simple. Neither had any idea what the other needed. The boss needed to complete his mission and treat all soldiers fairly. The Soldier wanted to complete his mission and meet his spiritual needs. I suggested the two meet under the watchful eye of the commander, and the conflict was resolved.
I will never forget my friend and colleague Chaplain Bob who began every prayer with the phrase “Please pray in your faith while I pray in mine.” Bob epitomized the Army Chaplain. He never judged, he helped anyone who needed it, and he made sure I took care of my soldiers.
Major Mark Germano
U.S. Army
The views expressed here are those of the author and do not reflect the official policy of the Department of the Army, Department of Defense, or the U.S. Government.
Comment 7/13/2008