Baseball Bleg
by tgirschJuly 12th, 2008
So I was teaching my wife to score baseball today at a minor league game, and encountered a scenario that I’m not sure how to score. Runner on first, batter grounds to the second baseman. The second baseman “freezes” the baserunner and throws over to first to get the batter out at first. 4-3, so far so good. But the runner is still out there between first and second. I had thought that it was as simple as throwing back over to second to get the second out and turn the double play, but apparently, since the batter was thrown out at first base first, that leaves the baserunner with the option of going on to second, or running back to first. And he’s caught in a rundown. So after the 4-3 I already mentioned, 3 throws back to 4, who throws back to 3, who tags the runner.
How the hell do you score that? 4-3-4-3? And is the batter credited with grounding into a double play in that scenario? And however the hell you do it, how the hell do you fit it in the little 0.75mm2 box they give you?
I also have a couple of questions about minor details, since it’s been perhaps 25 years since I’ve scored a ball game:
- Is any fly out that advances a runner a sac fly, or only ones on which the runner scores?
- How do you indicate whether an out on the basepaths was a force out or a tag out?
- I’m 95% sure that a batter who grounds into a double play that scores a run is not credited with an RBI, but I’d like confirmation of that.
- What’s the code to indicate a runner was picked off?
I expect digglahhh will answer all these questions from memory, but we’ll see. 
UPDATE: I got tired of waiting for digglahhh, so I looked a few of them up, and have other updates:
- According to rule 10.08, it is only scored as a sacrifice fly a runner scores as a result.
- According to rule 10.04, if you ground into a double play, you are not credited with an RBI, even if a runner scores. Also, if you ground into what should be a double play but isn’t because of an error, you’re not credit with an RBI.
- Someone asked how the runner at first could be “frozen”; basically, the ball was grounded between first and second base, and the second baseman fielded the ball. Once it was in his glove, he was standing directly between the runner and second base. Had the runner continued, he would have run directly into a tag, at which point there was an easy throw to first for the second out. The second baseman didn’t have sufficient time to turn around, throw to second (being covered by the shortstop), and have the shortstop throw over to first. In my estimation, however, it was decidedly a baserunning error by the runner; had he tried to run around the second baseman, he would have forced the second baseman to choose between chasing and tagging him or throwing over to first. At a minimum, after the second baseman threw to first, the runner should have tried to advance to second instead of trying to go back to first, which is what he actually did. By trying to run back to first, he made it a rundown situation instead of a simple tag play at second.
- According to the MLB definitions, it looks like it should be scored as a “reverse double play,” and the batter should be charged with grounding into a double play. And indeed, the official box score is available, and it lists the batter (Sanchez) as having grounded into a double-play. (His other two at bats were a base hit and a strikeout.) My memory of it was not quite right, though. They scored it 4-3-6-3. (You have to follow the gameday flash link from the box score — the little baseball diamond next to the “Box” link — in order to get the official play-by-play.)
So it looks like Ted was correct on his first three points, with the other two still open questions.
I’ll take a crack at it, but digg will know for sure.
* Sac fly only when runner scores.
* no RBI on double play (if both outs are force out)
* If batter is forced at first for first out of play, all other forces are removed. Other base runners can retreat if possible, and must be tagged while off base to be called out.
*If player is picked off after making any motion towards the next base, he is technically caught stealing, so that would be CS. Don’t know what a true pickoff is marked as.
*Don’t know how to mark the runner out at second after a force at first. But whatever it is, it is same as out trying to stretch a hit for an extra base, or out trying to advance on an infield fly rule.
I’ve never been into scoring, so not sure on the codes.
It’s been a long time for me, too, but from what I remember:
- Yes, it’d be 4-3-4-3.
- No, it’s not a double play, which is a double force. It’s just two outs on one play, no different from, for example, a screwed-up hit-and-run where the batter strikes out swinging and the runner gets thrown out at second.
- Any fly out that advances runners is a sac fly in the game score but for the batter’s own stats, the batter is charged with an at-bat unless a runner scores.
- Force out v. tag out, that one I don’t know or even if there is a way.
- You don’t get an RBI on a double play. It’s a fielder’s choice.
- Picked off, I don’t know. I found one source that says PK is the usual abbreviation, but I’m not at all sure how you would indicate at what point in the inning that happened. (Tom singles. Dick strikes out. Harry pops up. Inning ends because at some point Tom got picked off. But did it happen during Dick’s at-bat or Tom’s? How do you tell?)
I’m pretty sure that GIDP has to involve two force outs.
It is a double play though. If you hit a line drive and a runner gets “doubled up”, that is a double play. Same with a triple play. But the batter is only responsible for a double play if two forces are involved. (Which is not the case if the first out is made at 1b. (disclaimer: I have not verified this, I am relying on my understanding of the rules, so do not make any large wagers based on this info. No doubt digg will know for certain.)
In any event, hoe ’bout them Rays? 7 losses in a row allow my Red Sox to sneak into first place for the All-Star break.
And speaking of Florida teams, the Marlins are 6 games over 500 with a -20 run differential. They lead Altlanta in the standings, who are 6 games under 500 with a +29 run differential. I hope there aren’t too many PUMAs in Georgia. This would probably push them over the edge
Ted:
Apparently GIDP has to involve a ground ball, but not two force outs. There can be a tag out involved. This makes sense, actually, when you think of a simple variation on what I saw: suppose the second baseman fielded the ball, tagged the runner, and then threw to first for a force. In that case, the batter has clearly grounded into a double play. It seems to me, though, that the play has to start with at least the potential for two force outs.
On the latter part, though, I agree with you. If my understanding is correct (and it may not be here), if (for example) one of the two outs comes as a result of catching the ball on the fly, it’s not scored as a double play at all.
suppose the second baseman fielded the ball, tagged the runner, and then threw to first for a force
It’s still a double force because the runner going from first had to get to second or be out. Whether they were tagged directly or beaten to second by the ball doesn’t change the “force” aspect.
Yes, but the rule specifically stipulates that if the order is reversed — that is, if the fielder throws to first to get the force and then the ball is thrown to someone who tags the runner on his way to second, it’s still scored as a double play. The rules refer to it as a “reverse double play.” And to pick a semantic nit, it’s not a force out when you tag the runner, even when you could have gotten a force out simply by stepping on the bag.
Sorry, TG, I often take the weekends off…Looks like you answered most of your own question though. Anyway,
No RBI on a GDP.
Sac fly only when runner scores. Interesting tidbit: the sac fly rule was repealed from, off the top of my head, 1939-1951, meaning sac flies were just treated as hitless ABs, not non-Abs (like sac bunts or walks) as they are now. When Ted Williams hit .406 in 1941, he would have hit .412 had the sac fly rule been in effect.
Pickoffs are not “official stats,” so it doesn’t really matter how you score them, other than attributing an assist and put out. Often, you’ll hear the term, “picked-off-caught-stealing.” That’s just to differentiate from a conventional CS, but statistically, there’s no differnce. If the runner makes any break toward the next base, even after the throw over, it’s CS – some people find that unfair, but there’s really no other choice because if the runner makes it he gets an SB (barring an error, of course). My philosophy on scoring has always been that if you’re just scoring a game for fun/posterity, any syatem/notation that YOU are going to understand should suffice. You have to attribute things correctly, but use whatever actual notation you’ll best make sense of five years from now.
At MLB.com, when I score games, I input the data directly into a program that interprets the code and spits out a play by play and box score, so that’s basically how I score now. In the program, the code just gos PO1(13) for a pick off at first, pitcher to 1B.
The 4-3-4-3 woud be a GDP, it’s a reverse double play as you stated. The force situation is in play when the ball is hit, that’s all that matters; the runner doesn’t have a choice to leave 1B. Other plays on which two outs are recorded are not considered DPs (for the batter) because the assumption is the other out is the fault of the runner. This covers line and fly ball DPs where a runner gets doubled off, plus DPs where the baserunner not put out was not forced to run, for example runner only on 2B, grounder to short, SS tags runner, goes to first = 2 outs, but no GDP for the batter.
Tgirsch, looks like the guru has cleaned it all up. One clarification. I certainly didn’t mean to imply that it’s not a force out if a forced (compelled to advance) runner is tagged, only that he is compelled to advance. So from my reading of digg, a 3-4 double play (reverse DP) is still counted as a GIDP against he batter. That’s the part I had wrong.
Don’t know where else to put this (All Star thread is off the first page), Josh Hamilton - holy fucking shit!
In the SI article about him a few weeks ago, mentioned was the shows he puts on in BP, and how crowds come early just to watch him hit. Suffice to say, I now know why!!
So, digglahhh, you’re a scorer for MLB.com? I’m involved in a long-running dispute in another (private) forum, over how to score a certain play. I wonder if you (or others here) have any insight?
Boiled down, can both a DP and a SF be scored on the same play?
Scenario: No outs. Batter flies out deep. Runner on third tags up and scores. Runner from second is thrown out coming into third.
To me, this is clearly both a DP and a SF/RBI. The “other side” of the argument is adamant that it can’t be both.
Thoughts?
I’m not the authority here, but I’m going to side against you. It’s not technically a double-play (charged to the batter) if you fly out deep, no matter what else happens. Just as it’s not technically a double-play on a strike-em-out, throw-em-out “double play.”
So I’d score that as a SF, with the runner being thrown out trying to advance (I’ll defer to Digg, but I think you’d score this as the runner having been caught stealing).
In any case, if you were to score it as a DP (which I think you shouldn’t), then you shouldn’t credit the batter with an RBI, which would mean no SF. Batters don’t get RBI credit when they hit into a double play.
tgirsch, that’s essentially the reasoning being used by “the other side” alright. I objected based directly on the rules as written, but I suppose I’d get in a lot of trouble if I acted as though certain laws actually meant what they said, too.
===
10.11 DOUBLE AND TRIPLE PLAYS
The official scorer shall credit participation in a double play or triple play to each fielder who earns a putout or an assist when two or three players are put out between the time a pitch is delivered and the time the ball next becomes dead or is next in possession of the pitcher in a pitching position, unless an error or misplay intervenes between putouts.
===
I can see the exception for the strike out there, as the pitch has ostensibly not been “delivered” until the time it either hits the bat or the catcher’s glove. And I am not suggesting it should be “charged to the batter” as when one grounds into a force DP. But the defensive team has clearly earned this score for their actions, IMO.
Rule 10.04b1 addresses the RBI by stating that only in two specific DP cases (”when the batter grounds into a force double play or a reverse-force double play”) is the RBI not counted. The rules are silent on other sorts of DPs.
Seems to me, the defense has earned the DP, and the batter has earned the SF/RBI.
You could be right. We’ll see what Digg says. Although I still think it’s a case of “caught stealing,” because if the runner had just stayed put at second, there would have been no out to get (although I’ll admit the rules don’t seem to specifically address this). It would be more interesting if a runner on first assumed the ball would drop and ran, and then didn’t get back to first in time and is forced out there. That, in my mind, would constitute a double-play.
Well, this was just one scenario. As you can imagine, there are any number of potential DP scenarios that don’t involve a force or reverse-force.
The “other side” is just adamant that “you can’t score two plays on one play!” (to paraphrase). I think that’s nutz, of course, but I’m open to persuasion otherwise, especially if it’s from a scorer at MLB.com (pretty good suckup?)
I can’t say this is the RIGHT way, but this is how I’d score it: Let’s say the runner on third is #10, the runner on second is #15, and the batter is #20. And let’s say #20 flies out to the right fielder. #10 tags up and scores, while #15 tags up from second. The right fielder throws the ball on a rope to third, catching the advancing runner. I’d score SF9, with an RBI, in the box for #20’s at bat. In #10’s box, I’d indicate that he went home, marking it with a #20 next to the line from third to home. In #15’s box, I’d draw a line halfway from second to third, with a cross at the end, indicating he was out on his way from second to third, and I’d mark CS9-5/20 indicating that he was caught stealing, right to third, while #20 was at bat.
It sounds like your way would be to put DP/SF9-5 in #20’s box.
Neither, frankly, sounds correct to me.
I think you’ve summed it up exactly, including my own inclination for how to score it. I think 10.11 backs up the DP designation, too. There are only two criteria:
1) Two put outs between the time the pitch is delivered and the ball becomes dead or the pitcher next sets up.
2) There were no errors or misplays between the outs.
Why shouldn’t the defense be credited with the DP? (Man, I can’t believe how this echoes the exact crux of the debate in the other forum!)
Another similar situation that I recalled just this morning was the 2006 NLDS game 1 (http://tinyurl.com/5ocp2a), where two runners were tagged out at home on the same play. Boom! Boom!! DP.
Now, take that scenario, add a runner on third who scored, and you’d have to ask, “WTH *not* award the batter with an RBI?” Just seems to be an aversion there, but to me “not all DPs are created equal.”
Well, just reading the scenario quickly, it’s a SF and RBI for the batter. The nuance is that not all DPs that are credited to the defense are charged to the batter (basically, when it’s not his “fault” he doesn’t get penalized). This is one of those cases; DP, for the defense, no GDP for the batter. Runner on first is not forced and attempts to advance at his own risk. To charge a DP to the batter, the runner basically has to make an out in a force situation. As for the D, all they have to is make two outs on one “pitch” to earn a DP (unless the first and second outs are interrupted by an error - that gets kinda messy).
So it looks like Karl is right; but how would you mark that on a scoresheet? (I know, I know, you do the computer coding thing.)
In the program, it could go, for example, 9/SF/F/DP.3-H;1×2(96)- but, that doesn’t help. If I had to shorthand it, I’d write something like 9/SF/DP(96). No need to indicate “RBI,” the way you might on an error that could go either way, because the SF implies an RBI - you don’t get one if you don’t drive in a run. The most important thing is to differentiate between DPs charged to the batter and those that are not. A slash is a simple enough way to do so. 63-32 g/dp, as opposed to 643/gdp for example.
I’ve been asked for advice on scorekeeping many times, and my most important piece of advice is that if you are scoring a game for fun, and personal posterity, and not the official record, use whatever method of notation makes intuitive sense. The goal is that you look back on the sheet while cleaning out the drawer five years later, glance at the scoresheet and remember what happened on the play. That certainly trumps the goal of being technically correct in your notation.
It’s kinda like using professional proofreaders’ notation - it’s nice if you know it, but the more important goal is to communicate the changes that need to be made.
I like Digg’s answer. The defense is credited with a DP, but the batter is not charged with one. And since the batter isn’t charged with one, the SF indeed applies, as does the RBI.
Thanks, Digg! That’s how I read the rules, but it’s good to hear from a guy that close to the source. I agree with your “best advice” too — gotta be able to read your own book. Heh…