Hello, Joe! (Whadda ya know?)
Aug 23
So it’s Biden. Interesting. Not surprising, not a bad choice, not a homerun smash either. Probably the best possible choice but not the best choice; the best impossible choice is Hillary - that would have been a homerun smash, but, as I say, impossible.
The AP is being asinine about it, running an “analysis” claiming that picking someone who’s well-respected and has lots of experience shows a “lack of confidence”. As with everything in this campaign, there was no winning position for Obama, so it doesn’t matter what anyone says - if he’d picked a younger person, they’d criticize him for “lacking depth”. The real issue I see is that Biden carries this baggage of foot-in-mouth moments that will be getting heavy play during the campaign (the conservative blogs are already posting lists) - again not terrible, since anyone would be targeted by the right-wing noise machine, so it doesn’t matter whether he’s said those things or not. But it doesn’t help, especially since one line of attack on the GOP ticket is that Bush and McSame also say and do dumb things all the time.
What’s really interesting is that some of Biden’s more recent stellar moments have come at Obama’s expense. Now, it’s not unusual for Presidential candidates to pick a VP who was a former primary-campaign rival, and no doubt it takes a bit of hard swallowing to do that. But Biden was accused of crossing the racial line, including on this blog.* Obama was gracious about it at the time, which means he now doesn’t have to eat any of his own words about racial pride. (I guess that’s an upside to being gracious. Maybe I should try it. . . . Nah . . .) But still again, that may not make much difference. When George H.W. Bush correctly described Ronald Reagan’s tax plan as “voodoo economics”, it didn’t prevent Reagan from putting him on the ticket and winning. Biden’s awkward praise for Obama is light years away from Bush’s glaring and prescient direct attack on his own campaign’s platform, so there’s no reason it should matter either.
I suspect that Obama figured Biden’s considerable strengths would outweigh his relatively minor weaknesses. He’s likely right. The campaign is already too “interesting” for my comfort, but the Democrats have a strong ticket and they both know how to campaign. Hope they pull it off.
UPDATE: The excellent election analysis blog FiveThirtyEight throws some light on this from the perspective of voter dynamics. Taking the last pre-announcement popularity poll, Hillary shows a huge favorable/unfavorable ratings net balance among Democratic voters, the greatest for all possible Democratic VPs, but with high negatives also. Biden comes in pretty close behind her, but with much lower negatives within his own party. (And of course the rankings are just the opposite among GOP voters, but as Nate, the 538 blogger, points out, this hardly matters since it seems the Dems are going to pull very few crossover votes.) What is interesting is that, among independents, Biden has far and away the strongest net positive approval ratings, and Hillary’s are far and away the worst, among all Democratic VP hopefuls - in fact, she’s got a negative 18% approval rating among swing voters, while Biden’s is a net positive 13%. Nate also performs an interesting analysis showing that, making certain assumptions about crossover vote potential according to the balance of “Very Favorable, Favorable, Unfavorable, Very Unfavorable” responses, Biden pulls a slight positive net gain for the Democratic ticket while Hillary would actually have a net slightly negative effect on the ticket. (I’m not sure I believe this analysis, because I think he overestimates the probability of crossover votes, and I don’t think his analysis accounts for the “PUMA”/Hillary diehard effect, but it’s still worth considering.)
In short, Biden comes out as the strongest possible choice because he is almost as solid as Hillary within the party, has much lower intra-party negatives, and, most important, is vastly more popular among swing voters. And, although they have different styles, he’s on a part par with Hillary in political infighting and debate. Of course the statistical analysis treats pre-announcement popularity polls as if they’re static. The announcement alone will force some people to shift their opinions, and there’s a lot of political dynamics between now and the election. But, given what they know now, there’s a strong case to be made for Biden, and - crucially - not as strong a case to be made against him, compared to Hillary - in terms of voter appeal plain and simple. Which makes Obama’s choice easy to justify on those obviously important grounds.
UPDATE: Fixed typos.
* Yes, I’m now officially on record as calling the VP candidate on the ticket I’ll undoubtedly vote for a “dumb motherfucker”. But, you know, I meant it in a good way.
#1 by gattsuru at August 23rd, 2008
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I’m not really sure what the point of picking Biden is. He’s establishment and makes up for Obama’s lack of real experience, but almost any gov or Sen selection could have picked that up. In 2006, his positions on the war might have helped, but by now both he and Obama are both pretty far in the “bravely run away!” camp. Foreign policy experience doesn’t hurt, but there’s going to be a feeling that the man’s just parroting Obama’s policies to give them the appearance of trustworthiness. Socially, same thing; he’s not pro-abortion enough to bring the NARAL-heads over, and his more recent votes against parental notification mean he can’t dance the middle while Obama stays in NARAL territory. On gun control and taxes, he’s demonstrated that there’s no money- and gun-grabbing he wouldn’t like.
I’m sure that, somewhere, there was a voter not quite sure Joyce Foundation chairperson Obama hated guns enough and is now convinced that Assault Weapon Ban II is around the corner, but I don’t think there’s many of ‘em.
Biden’s also got some skeletons in his closet. Not sure they’ll be worth digging up — plagiarism is, for a Senator, small fish, and VP candidates aren’t particularly valuable to go after — but they do seem to exist.
Worse than that, he’s a damned good reason for a lot of conservatives to go to the voting booths. There are a lot of gun owners that wouldn’t have voted for McCain if the opposing side had an NRA-endorsed VP like Richardson (who’s otherwise a bit too loony left and smart to run VP) or some of the other gun-friendly Dems.
Maybe I’m missing something, though. I just hope it wasn’t a decision made over internal DNC politicking; if it was, we Republicans will really enjoy finding out why.
#2 by Dan M. at August 23rd, 2008
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To sort of agree with Gatt, why does it seem so hard for the Democratic Party to find people who are both progressive and liberal?
#3 by LarryE at August 24th, 2008
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Since even now people are still talking about Hillary, I’ll just mention my perspective:
Had I been Obama, after Clinton conceded I would have gotten together with her and said “Look, Hillary, let’s be blunt here. Can you look me in the eye and honestly tell me that you could be happy being vice-president? Spending the next four and hopefully eight years defending my policies instead of arguing for your own?”
If she were to be honest, I think her answer would have to be “No.”
Despite the pestering of her supporters, I wonder if she actually wanted the nod. I remember in 1988 there was a lot of noise that Jesse Jackson had “earned” the right to be picked as Michael Dukakis’s running mate by his performance in the primaries, but at the time I expressed doubt he wanted to be VP. “One of the dangers of generating a tide,” I wrote, “is that it can sometimes carry you to places you didn’t want to go.” I suspect the same is true of Clinton and the VP slot.
#4 by KTK at August 24th, 2008
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Larry:
There’s a lot to that, but you also have to look at the future for Hillary. She wants to try again, and that will happen in one of two scenarios: Obama loses this year and the nomination is open in 2012, or Obama wins and is the presumptive nominee in 2012, meaning her last and only chance will be in 2016. Now, what will best position her to be the Democratic nominee under either of those scenarios?
If she’s the VP this year and they lose, that hurts her (probably doesn’t kill her, but hurts her) for 2012. If she’s not the VP and Obama loses, she becomes the all-but-certain presumptive nominee in 2012, riding a gigantic wave of “I told you so” into the primaries.
If Obama wins, though, and she’s the VP, she instantly becomes the presumptive nominee in 2016 (assuming they win again in 2012, and likely even if they don’t). If Obama wins and she’s not the VP, then the actual VP (Biden, now) becomes the heir apparent and Hillary has an uphill fight.
So, in terms of setting up another Hillary presidential run in 2012 or 2016, it’s better for Hillary not to be the VP now if Obama is going to lose, but much, much better - almost necessary - for her to be the VP if Obama wins. Of the two, it’s better for Hillary if Obama loses now, so she can run again as soon as possible, but if he’s going to win she’s got to be on that bandwagon.
For Hillary, then, thinking only of herself and not the party or the country, it would come down to a question of whether she thinks Obama is going to win this year. If the answer is “yes”, I imagine she would accept a VP slot whether she really felt comfortable with it or not, because it’s her ticket to the top of the card after Obama.
Now, I don’t think Hillary really makes these decisions only on that basis (still less do I think she is secretly sabotaging Obama so she can run in 2012). But I do think she’d take a job she felt was beneath her if it was her last best chance for the job she really wants. And I think she’s professional enough to pull it off successfully.
It’s moot now, of course.
#5 by gattsuru at August 24th, 2008
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Interesting update. I hope Obama’s not foolish enough to take pos/neg numbers on relatively unknown candidates to heart, but it might be a cause, even if it is a poorly reasoned one.
LarryE, I’ll admit my biases on the matter, but I have a very nasty feeling that Hillary Clinton will do whatever is necessary to hold attention and power. Close second in a candidacy for president is no power, and Senator that’s used up their serious presidential campaign run isn’t that powerful, either. If she had to play Obama puppet for eight years in return for vastly increased odds of getting the top seat herself, I think she’d take it. I certainly wouldn’t hesitate, in her shoes and assuming she wants the Presidency in the first place.
#6 by LarryE at August 24th, 2008
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It is moot, but I still frankly doubt she would take or be happy in the secondary role. If she’s going to ride an Obama bandwagon to a later nomination, she’d have to go into it thinking in terms of 2016 - when she’d be 68 at the time of the primaries and turn 69 during the general. I believe she figured this was her one good shot.
The other thing is that the talk about how she just had to be the VP nominee never seemed to emanate from her or her campaign but from her various supporters. That may have been trying to game things but I think a repeat of the 1988 Jackson scenario I suggested is closer to the mark.
That’s enough from me on this. As you said, it’s moot.
#7 by Ted at August 24th, 2008
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Couple of things. First, I think it is safe to establish as fact that any serious candidate for POTUS is running because they want to be in charge, not for country, not for god, not for the little people, but for themselves. They have huge egos and are driven by success. have never, for one minute, believed any candidate differed from any other candidate on this. (At the presidential level, where the job is all-consuming.)
Second, I believe Obama can weave a very reasonable story about change and Biden. Change in DC is not like change in Vegas. You don’t start by buying the land and tearing down everything on it; building from scratch. Change has to occur while day to day business continues. It has to be more organic. So the first thing you do is you go out and get a guy who knows how everything works, has tons of experience, who gets along with most others in Congress, has low negatives (ie built-in resistance), and is not heavily-invested in the status quo in terms of wealth generation from questionable sources. That’s Biden. (That’s not Hillary). Then you describe how, in conjunction with this guy that knows what works and what does not work, you are going to strive to make significant, substantial changes to the system. This seems like a reasonable story - one that can be sold.
Had Obama picked another outsider, then it’s easy to attack the change narrative by saying these guys don’t know how things work, so they can’t possibly change them.
Finally, polls show that Biden has low negatives across the board and does will with independents. He has a pretty god back-story - one that is in sharp contrast to the monied, privileged GOP ticket (especially assuming Romney). He is a good attack dog, and has the gravitas to go right after McCain and force him to continually use his POW-get out of jail free card until it wears too thin. Which might be coming up soon. SO far, it has been used to account for his cheating on his wife, his not knowing how many house he owns, his lying about the “cone of silence”, and of course is in virtually every ad that is not a strict attack Obama ad. All after him saying he wasnot going to emphasize it.
Back to Hillary for a moment. I think we will get a good read on her motives (doing it for the country or doing it for herself) over the next few months. If she is able to convince all but the real dead-enders to vote for the candidate that aligns with he on policy about 95% of the time, as opposed to the one that is in direct opposition (should be a straight-forward task), that will tell one thing. If she fails, that will tell something very different.
#8 by tgirsch at August 25th, 2008
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Adding my usual level of substance to the discussion, shouldn’t it be “Hey, Joe?”
#9 by KTK at August 25th, 2008
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Why - was he seen going downtown with a gun in his hand?
#10 by tgirsch at August 25th, 2008
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KTK:
Ha! Perhaps he caught his “old lady…”
Actually, I’ve always heard the expression as “Hey, Joe, Whaddya know?”
#11 by tgirsch at August 25th, 2008
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Having now read your full post (but not his), I generally agree with the 538 guy. The problem with Clinton is that her negatives are WAY too high, especially with independents (the same reason I think she would have been a disastrous nominee from an electability perspective, even as I mostly liked her on policy). There are few figures in politics, from either party, that come with as much pre-manufactured hatred as Clinton does. You might not see it much in NYC, but in “flyover country,” there are a LOT of people who have a reflexive and wholly irrational hatred of Hillary Clinton that would be extremely difficult to overcome.
And while I admit this is mostly gut feel, I don’t think the PUMA issue is going to be as big a deal as people are saying. If the PUMAs really do stay home or vote McCain, then (to borrow and expound upon your eloquent phrasing) they’re the stupidest motherfuckers on the planet.
Finally, Ted at #7 demonstrates why I “promoted” him.
#12 by gattsuru at August 25th, 2008
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I think it’s rather rational, as one of the people who have that particular bias. Her policies and alliances have not been great.
On the other hand, going away from that to someone with similar policies and alliances is just asking for the same biases to pick up, plus whatever skeletons he has in his closet already. To quote the beer commercial guys, “Brilliant!”
#13 by tgirsch at August 25th, 2008
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gattsuru:
I think it’s rather rational, as one of the people who have that particular bias. Her policies and alliances have not been great.
It may be rational in your case, but not so much in the case of a large percentage of the people who hate her (including many Democratic-leaning independents). In my experience, most of the people who claim to hate her actually hate her, not her policies. They may also hate those (although many don’t), but even in that case, they hate Clinton a lot more than plenty of other people who share the same policies (or have even more liberal policies). Hillary haters don’t say things like “she wants to socialize health care!” or “she’s going to raise my taxes!” They say she’s “a bitch” or “cold” or “calculating” or other vague misogynistic terms (even the women who don’t like her tend to use them, ironically). Hell, even “closet lesbian” isn’t all that uncommon to hear from her detractors.
You’ll notice that none of these common criticisms, have anything to do with policies. The whole Hillary Clinton thing seems to me to be the opposite of a personality cult. It’s not about her policies, it’s about her.
(And if you don’t think there’s a gender-based double-standard at work here, how often do you Obama’s critics calling him “an asshole?” Compare that to how often Hillary gets called “a bitch.”)
#14 by Ted at August 25th, 2008
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“Hey Joe” - song by Jimi Hendrix
“Hello hey Joe, You wanna give it a go?” lyric from “Lady Marmalade”
“Hello Joe, wadda ya know” unattributed, but probably originally uttered somewhere in Brooklyn or the Bronx
#15 by tgirsch at August 25th, 2008
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Upon further research, although both uses (Hey versus Hello) seem to be common, the “Hello” version traces back farther — to an old 1930’s Andrews Sisters song called Well All Right (Tonight’s the Night)
#16 by Ted at August 25th, 2008
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Hmmm. Recalling a scene from “Finding Forrester” (a good flick if you have not seen it), the main character corrects his pedantic English teacher when the prof misuses the word “farther”. When referencing time, I believe the proper choice it “further”. (And aren’t you now rethinking that recent upgrade you awarded me
)
#17 by gattsuru at August 25th, 2008
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Ironically, Google gets 1.5 million returns for “obama asshole”. Only a third as many as “Clinton bitch”, but while Clinton actually seems to match the associated controlling and manipulative aspect, I can’t really visualize Obama acting out parts from the Denis Leary song. He’s got more of the cult figure selling snake oil thing going on. Obama does manage to beat Clinton when combined with the term idiot (yes, both Clintons), so it’s not unusual for something to vary one way rather than the other.
I’m not sure cold, calculating (I’m not sure I want to know if these are misogynistic) are not policy issues. A cold, calculating, and manipulative individual can pick something that will kill X and make life better for N*X. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it is certainly not good policy from a lot of different moral stances, especially when the definition of N differs.
#18 by Ted at August 25th, 2008
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Using google to search in that fashion proves exactly nothing. If you do the search in a more proper fashion, and search “obama is an asshole”, (in quotes), you get 545 hits. “Clinton is a bitch” yields 16200. Using first names, Barack yields 3 and Hillary yields 671, for totals of 548 hits for BHO and 17871 for HRC. Research must be done properly to be of value.
#19 by tgirsch at August 26th, 2008
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Ted:
Re: Farther vs. Further, you’re probably right. And I’m similarly pedantic about “less” versus “fewer.” Lite beer from Miller has a third fewer calories than their regular beer, not a third less. Fewer refers to quantity/number, while less refers to degree.
#20 by Ted at August 26th, 2008
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I wouldn’t have mentioned it, but you do seem to get off on grammar, so I figured what the heck.
My most pet peeve (and I certainly don’t claim to be an English major) is insure/ensure/assure.
#21 by tgirsch at August 26th, 2008
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Ooh, that one gets me, too, especially misuse of “insure.”