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	<title>Comments on: In Tentative Support of the GM Bailout</title>
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	<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/</link>
	<description>The View From the Sinister Side of Life</description>
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		<title>By: ooopinionsss</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620646</link>
		<dc:creator>ooopinionsss</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 03 Dec 2008 08:58:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620646</guid>
		<description>How you think when the economic crisis will end? I wish to make statistics of independent opinions!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How you think when the economic crisis will end? I wish to make statistics of independent opinions!</p>
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		<title>By: Jacob Pendo</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620407</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacob Pendo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 22:44:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620407</guid>
		<description>Let them eat cake...

This dude named Marx once said that Capitalism will be its own demise and that it will eventually replaced with communism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let them eat cake&#8230;</p>
<p>This dude named Marx once said that Capitalism will be its own demise and that it will eventually replaced with communism.</p>
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		<title>By: PHILLIP</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620399</link>
		<dc:creator>PHILLIP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 20:10:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620399</guid>
		<description>Auto Industry, come to congress with a plan! Survival should come at a price for all involved in your industry. Give congress a plan on survival. Everyone tighten your belt! Tell congress I want a loan and in return for that, we have come together with this proposal. We will ask Management and Labor to take an across the table reduction in salary and benefits... Get your landlords, attorneys, suppliers, advertising agencies, to participate in your pain. Make it equitable across the board.  They are all going to get 
alot more by you staying in business then going out of business, or filing chapter 11.  Entrepreneurs are nimble and quick your company was started by entrepreneurs. Put out a simple letter to all involved to be signed, if everyone comes to the table your stock has value and you become a good loan risk to tax payers. Make a public chart who is your partner and who is not. If not chapter 11 will do it for you at a much higher cost.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Auto Industry, come to congress with a plan! Survival should come at a price for all involved in your industry. Give congress a plan on survival. Everyone tighten your belt! Tell congress I want a loan and in return for that, we have come together with this proposal. We will ask Management and Labor to take an across the table reduction in salary and benefits&#8230; Get your landlords, attorneys, suppliers, advertising agencies, to participate in your pain. Make it equitable across the board.  They are all going to get<br />
alot more by you staying in business then going out of business, or filing chapter 11.  Entrepreneurs are nimble and quick your company was started by entrepreneurs. Put out a simple letter to all involved to be signed, if everyone comes to the table your stock has value and you become a good loan risk to tax payers. Make a public chart who is your partner and who is not. If not chapter 11 will do it for you at a much higher cost.</p>
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		<title>By: gattsuru</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620362</link>
		<dc:creator>gattsuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 19 Nov 2008 04:22:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620362</guid>
		<description>Kevin, the government does not pay the health care of American Toyota workers, which are still more profitable (usually to a tune of ~40-60 USD+benefits/hour).  The numbers do speak for themselves, if you actually bother to look for and read them, rather than spout what Al Franken can pass out.

If you actually believe it&#039;s a worthwhile use of American taxpayer money to keep afloat a trio of companies that, &lt;i&gt;by your own admission&lt;/i&gt;, &lt;b&gt;no one is going to buy from&lt;/b&gt; (an attribute I listed but quickly dismissed as a meaningless option), I think we have what might be considered a fundamental conflict of underlying understandings.  I tend to assume the point of a company is to make products or provide services, as would be the point of having employees.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, the government does not pay the health care of American Toyota workers, which are still more profitable (usually to a tune of ~40-60 USD+benefits/hour).  The numbers do speak for themselves, if you actually bother to look for and read them, rather than spout what Al Franken can pass out.</p>
<p>If you actually believe it&#8217;s a worthwhile use of American taxpayer money to keep afloat a trio of companies that, <i>by your own admission</i>, <b>no one is going to buy from</b> (an attribute I listed but quickly dismissed as a meaningless option), I think we have what might be considered a fundamental conflict of underlying understandings.  I tend to assume the point of a company is to make products or provide services, as would be the point of having employees.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620351</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:51:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620351</guid>
		<description>Jason

Cite, please, and show your work: how is the UAW the problem here?  Show that the UAW contracts are the cause and not, say the fact that the government pays for the health care of Toyota workers or Toyota execs are paid at a much lower rate or pretty much anything else that could be the cause of the alleged problem.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jason</p>
<p>Cite, please, and show your work: how is the UAW the problem here?  Show that the UAW contracts are the cause and not, say the fact that the government pays for the health care of Toyota workers or Toyota execs are paid at a much lower rate or pretty much anything else that could be the cause of the alleged problem.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620350</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:47:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620350</guid>
		<description>&quot;You fail economics forever. If there is any demand for these products, the suppliers and most of the workers related to GM will be rehired&quot;

That has to be the most uninformed thing I have read about the current mess. GM  and the like are currently in trouble not because  no one is buying GM cars but becasue the credit crisis and econoic donwturn has created a sitution where no one is buying any cars.  Toyotay, Honda, etc are all getting creamed. So once the Big Three close, those jobs are not coming back for ytears, if at all.

 Because of past mistakes and the steps taken to correct past mistakes, the Big Three do not have the same cash on hand situation that Toyota et. al. do.  Normally, this could be finessed by borrowing money, but, again, the credit crisis has made that very difficult for the auto makers to do at a rate they can reasonably afford.  hence the bailout is reasonable to undertake, if you believe, as I do, that the big three can survive medium term and that the loss of jobs would be a crushing blow to the economy at this time.  But those jobs will go, because the bad economy and credit crisis have made the car business crap for everybody.

However, since the demand for cars will rebound once the credit crisis is passed and really rebound when the economy picks up, there is little sense in driving the country deeper into recession and gut our industrial base as a solution to what appears to be a temporary problem.

Your Econ 101 textbook, by the way, does not model the actual economy all that well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You fail economics forever. If there is any demand for these products, the suppliers and most of the workers related to GM will be rehired&#8221;</p>
<p>That has to be the most uninformed thing I have read about the current mess. GM  and the like are currently in trouble not because  no one is buying GM cars but becasue the credit crisis and econoic donwturn has created a sitution where no one is buying any cars.  Toyotay, Honda, etc are all getting creamed. So once the Big Three close, those jobs are not coming back for ytears, if at all.</p>
<p> Because of past mistakes and the steps taken to correct past mistakes, the Big Three do not have the same cash on hand situation that Toyota et. al. do.  Normally, this could be finessed by borrowing money, but, again, the credit crisis has made that very difficult for the auto makers to do at a rate they can reasonably afford.  hence the bailout is reasonable to undertake, if you believe, as I do, that the big three can survive medium term and that the loss of jobs would be a crushing blow to the economy at this time.  But those jobs will go, because the bad economy and credit crisis have made the car business crap for everybody.</p>
<p>However, since the demand for cars will rebound once the credit crisis is passed and really rebound when the economy picks up, there is little sense in driving the country deeper into recession and gut our industrial base as a solution to what appears to be a temporary problem.</p>
<p>Your Econ 101 textbook, by the way, does not model the actual economy all that well.</p>
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		<title>By: gattsuru</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620349</link>
		<dc:creator>gattsuru</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 22:29:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620349</guid>
		<description>For the love of Pete...
&lt;i&gt;Not only would that kill those companies, it would kill all of the suppliers who depend on their business. And that would kill all of the companies that depend on those suppliers, and so on and so on down the line.&lt;/i&gt;
You fail economics &lt;i&gt;forever&lt;/i&gt;.  If there is &lt;b&gt;any&lt;/b&gt; demand for these products, the suppliers and most of the workers related to GM will be rehired.  Almost certainly at a decrease in value for GM employees (average GM employee pay and benefits are nearly twice that of a Toyota worker), but work that &lt;i&gt;needs to be done&lt;/i&gt; isn&#039;t going to disappear.  On the contrawise, work that no one is going to pay for will not be done, and thus little guarantee that the bailout will do anything but slow the bleed of jobs from GM&#039;s closing plants.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For the love of Pete&#8230;<br />
<i>Not only would that kill those companies, it would kill all of the suppliers who depend on their business. And that would kill all of the companies that depend on those suppliers, and so on and so on down the line.</i><br />
You fail economics <i>forever</i>.  If there is <b>any</b> demand for these products, the suppliers and most of the workers related to GM will be rehired.  Almost certainly at a decrease in value for GM employees (average GM employee pay and benefits are nearly twice that of a Toyota worker), but work that <i>needs to be done</i> isn&#8217;t going to disappear.  On the contrawise, work that no one is going to pay for will not be done, and thus little guarantee that the bailout will do anything but slow the bleed of jobs from GM&#8217;s closing plants.</p>
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		<title>By: Jason</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620347</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:09:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620347</guid>
		<description>Today GM suffers a loss of about $2,000 per vehicle sold.  On the other hand Toyota whose employees are not part of the UAW earns a profit of about $1,200 per vehicle sold.

No Bailout until the UAW sees the light.

http://nomedals.blogspot.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Today GM suffers a loss of about $2,000 per vehicle sold.  On the other hand Toyota whose employees are not part of the UAW earns a profit of about $1,200 per vehicle sold.</p>
<p>No Bailout until the UAW sees the light.</p>
<p><a href="http://nomedals.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://nomedals.blogspot.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620307</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 03:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620307</guid>
		<description>There is nothing positive that a bailout will do for Detroit that Chapter 11 won&#039;t, and bankruptcy court and the industry&#039;s long line of creditors will be far more likely to reorganize the industry into profitability and responsible management than some big handout to the UAW, shareholders, management, the Michigan congressional delegation, and everyone else except taxpayers and consumers.

The US auto industry has been selling the same old spin since the early 80s.  They&#039;re always &quot;just around the corner&quot; from &quot;turning it all around&quot; and being &quot;#1 again&quot;.  They&#039;ve been far more successful and profitable at selling bull over the last 30 years than they ever were at selling vehicles.  It&#039;s all garbage and if the Obama administration does a bailout, it&#039;s a guarantee that the same cast of characters will chew away at any sort of reform from the start and we&#039;ll be right back where we are within 10 years.

President Obama, this is your moment of truth.  Let them go!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is nothing positive that a bailout will do for Detroit that Chapter 11 won&#8217;t, and bankruptcy court and the industry&#8217;s long line of creditors will be far more likely to reorganize the industry into profitability and responsible management than some big handout to the UAW, shareholders, management, the Michigan congressional delegation, and everyone else except taxpayers and consumers.</p>
<p>The US auto industry has been selling the same old spin since the early 80s.  They&#8217;re always &#8220;just around the corner&#8221; from &#8220;turning it all around&#8221; and being &#8220;#1 again&#8221;.  They&#8217;ve been far more successful and profitable at selling bull over the last 30 years than they ever were at selling vehicles.  It&#8217;s all garbage and if the Obama administration does a bailout, it&#8217;s a guarantee that the same cast of characters will chew away at any sort of reform from the start and we&#8217;ll be right back where we are within 10 years.</p>
<p>President Obama, this is your moment of truth.  Let them go!</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin</title>
		<link>http://www.leanleft.com/archives/2008/11/17/6906/comment-page-1/#comment-620298</link>
		<dc:creator>Kevin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 17 Nov 2008 20:06:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.leanleft.com/?p=6906#comment-620298</guid>
		<description>Dan M.

I thought about that, but they would still need the extra money, so we would either be buying at a huge premium, or we would spend more money on top of the bridge loans.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan M.</p>
<p>I thought about that, but they would still need the extra money, so we would either be buying at a huge premium, or we would spend more money on top of the bridge loans.</p>
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