Who Decides?
Nov 21
Publius does a nice job summing up what’s at the heart of the liberal/conservative divide on “social conservative” issues:
The social conservatives’ positions tend to empower government over individuals. If they got their way, the public would be forced to submit to the government’s decision-making. The more liberal position, by contrast, allocates power to individuals – no one is forced to do anything. (Admittedly, this is not really a constitutional argument – just an additional explanation for why the Christian Right tends to scare people).
Take, for instance, the granddaddy issue of them all – abortion. The Christian Right position would require every single person in a given jurisdiction to give birth. (Yes, some would argue that it’s simply about letting the states decide – but still, they prefer this position because many states, and virtually the entire South, would ban abortion). Thus, the decision-making power here would belong to the government. Individuals would no longer be free to decide.
The pro-choice position, by contrast, ensures that individuals – not the government – will ultimately make these private decisions. Individuals remain free to have, or not have, abortions as they and their God see fit. And everyone remains free to persuade their fellow citizens of the values of bringing all pregnancies to term. But in the end, the individual – and not the state – would make the final call.
This pattern repeats itself across a number of issues. For example, gay marriage doesn’t require anyone to do anything. It merely allows consenting gay adults to be married. Gay marriage bans, by contrast, grant that decision-making power to the state.
Similarly, rights to contraception don’t require anyone to do anything – the ultimate decision remains with the individual. Contraception bans, by contrast, allocate the decision-making power to the government.
Same deal with school prayer. Banning school prayer in public classes doesn’t prevent anyone from praying privately at the school. But allowing public prayer, by contrast, would force non-Christians to sit through prayer sessions in a publicly funded school. Again, the decision to participate in prayer would be made by the state, not the individual.
The larger point is that these examples illustrate why many people fear social conservatives – simply put, many of the latter’s preferred positions would use the state to intrude on people’s lives and dictate very private and personal decisions to them.
Now, I think this is largely true. But at the same time, if you expand beyond the so-called “social conservative” issues, there are plenty of places where it’s the liberals who would be doing the forcing. Environmental issues, for example, or gun control.
That said, I think the fact that compliance is somehow enforced is not, in and of itself, necessarily a bad thing. It depends upon your view of the thing being enforced.
#1 by Big U at November 24th, 2008
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That said, I think the fact that compliance is somehow enforced is not, in and of itself, necessarily a bad thing. It depends upon your view of the thing being enforced.
And therein lies the biggest issue. You are okay with enforced compliance but only as long as that forced compliance fits with your idea of what is okay to enforce. How on earth is that any different than the Christian right? Based on your comment, if you took a position where you agreed with the Christian Right’s ideas, you would be okay with their perspective on what issues deserve enforced compliance.
Or am I missing something?
#2 by Dan M. at November 24th, 2008
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BU,
I think there are two things you’re missing.
(1) As a guideline, enforcement is a red flag; a solution that involves enforcement demands more scrutiny than one that does not, but may still be acceptible.
(2) Who is being forced is absolutely critical. Outside of gun control, “liberals” want enforcement of businesses and conservatives want enforcement of indivdiuals. (I’m wildly oversimplifying, but you can see the distinction being made.) I think that is what TG meant.
(Now, you might wonder why gun control is different. I certainly wonder, too. I think liberals are abjectly illiberal on that one, and wish they would stop.)
#3 by Big U at November 24th, 2008
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“business” IS people and often it is individuals so your point #2 rings somewhat hollow unless you are referring more specifically to large corporations.
#4 by Janusz at November 24th, 2008
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Dan M. wrote: “(Now, you might wonder why gun control is different. I certainly wonder, too. I think liberals are abjectly illiberal on that one, and wish they would stop.)”
It’s different because “liberals” generally seek to regulate gun usage, not eliminate it, the way overturning Roe vs Wade would do to abortion, or Prop 8 does to marriage. And I don’t think instituting waiting periods on gun purchases, licencing firearms, instituting age restrictions is curbing one’s right to enjoy the sport any more than regulating alcohol restricts social drinking (as opposed to prohibition). Like alcohol, guns are extremely dangerous, and it is in the interests of the greater public to have some kind of control.
#5 by Dan M. at November 24th, 2008
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Janusz,
I’m not talking about things like waiting periods (worthless, but also harmless) or prohibition for felons and the insane (perfectly sensible). I’m talking about things like DC’s complete ban on handguns or NY’s expensive per-gun registration of handguns.
Also guns differ from alcohol rather importantly is that, outside of some dumb jokes about being too drunk to care, alcohol is not a solution to violations of the Fourth Amendment. Sportive uses of guns are completely unimportant.
#6 by Dan M. at November 24th, 2008
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BU,
“business” IS people and often it is individuals
Now, here’s a case where you’re talking just like a US Republican (pre- or post-neocon), which isn’t to say that you’re insincere or even misinformed (or i’d have just said neocon), but I do think it’s a somewhat glib phrase that overlooks some important things.
First, business isn’t people. It’s one of the things people do. One of them. Business regulations have, for instance, no effect whatsoever on what religion a person can espouse.
Second, there’s quite a large distance between individuals and large corporations, and a business pretty much stops being individual the moment you get more than a handful of partners and staff. Even the nice old folk-loric case of the private hardware store isn’t an individual thing the moment old Pops hires a clerk to help out, unless Pops is skulking behind the counter with that clerk giving the thumbs-up or thumbs-down for each chump that walks through his door, thus keeping things in the realm of his “freedom of association” (to put it in US fundy terms).
Third, business is actually two things people do. (1) run or be employed by business, and (2) consume or patronize business. Quite often immunities in (1) are restritions on (2) and visa versa. When we passed laws that said “private” banks had to give loans to blacks just the same as whites, that was a restriction on the business of the bank owners, and a freedom for the black people who used that business. Was it a restriction on the bank owners themselves? Not really, a dollar from a black man is worth the same as a dollar from a white man; how money the bankers could make and how the bankers lived their lives wasn’t in any way restricted, just the way that their business interacted with the public.
#7 by Big U at April 24th, 2009
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Only place I could think of to post this based on the poster’s initial comment The more liberal position, by contrast, allocates power to individuals – no one is forced to do anything.
How does this match up with Miss California missing out on becoming Miss USA simply because she stated her honest opinion regarding gay marriage? Doesn’t seem like, based on the reaction to her comments, that there is too much openness for people to have their own opinions on things. Seems somewhat intolerant to me. Actually, it seems extremely intolerant.
#8 by tgirsch at April 24th, 2009
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Being intolerant of intolerance is no vice, as far as I’m concerned. Besides, weren’t you the one arguing that private entities have a right to make such distinctions? It’s not as if the government forced the pageant to rule the way they did, so you’re seriously talking about apples and oranges here.
Besides which, given the fact that beauty pageants objectify women in the ways in which they do, I don’t know that it’s necessarily fair to characterize the organizers as “liberals.”
#9 by Big U at April 24th, 2009
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tgirsch > take a look at the incident. Based on your response I will guess you have not seen either her response to the question or the blog on which the judge Calls miss California a bitch because of her opinion. Does the pageant have the right to choose who they want? Yup. But the way she is reacted to makes it clear that tolerance of different opinions is not allowed on some topics.
#10 by Dan M. at April 24th, 2009
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BU,
Is it that hard to understand that the actual content of opinions matter? Is it okay to be intolerant of another person’s choice in music? No. Is it okay to be intolerant of whether another person skull fucks puppies? Yes. On which side of the line is denying civil rights to gay people? The the same side as where harm comes to a sentient.
#11 by digglahhh at April 25th, 2009
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…you know, they have the freedom to select whomever the want as judges too.
The criteria is supposed to reflect the underlying spirit of the nation which the swimsuit/evening gown-clad nimrods are vying to represent. Commitment to civil rights is something this nation at least gives lip service to being integral to its philosophical constructs. So, if you don’t embrace that, I’d say that’s a legitimate, objective, hole in your qualifications for the position.
(Are we really talking about this?)
#12 by Big U at April 25th, 2009
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Dan M. > Did you actually see what happened? She said she did not personally agree with same-sex marriage BUT she was glad she lived in a country where it was an option for people.
It makes me nervous that the answer she gave is seen enough of a reason for people to vilify her. Does this now mean that expressing one’s personal beliefs is no longer acceptable?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8XMvviFbkf0
#13 by Dan M. at April 25th, 2009
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So, I hadn’t actually been following the story of this pageant contestant, but was just commenting on the structure of your complaint. Now I’ve watched the video and read a few comments about the event.
The quote in relevent part appears to be “In my country and in my family marriage is between one man and one woman.“. This was in response to (paraphrased) “Should every state legalize same sex marriage?”.
Without the context of the question, the answer could be seen as a comment about religious marriage. I think it’s pretty clear that nobody gives a fuck what one sect’s handling of any other sect’s religious unions. But given the question asked, she had to be talking about civil wedlock. Add to that the fact that she said “in my country”, and it becomes quite clear that she doesn’t want homosexuals to have the same civil rights as heterosexuals. (There’s the alternative that she didn’t mean that because she was being too stupid to mean anything at all, but that really doesn’t improve the situation.)
So, do I think people should be “vilif[ied]” for advocating denying equal civil rights? Fuck yes! (At least if by vilify we mean to be publicly rebuked for being morally wrong.) Should they be criminially or even civilly accountable? No, but I’m pretty sure the price she paid for being a bigot (or maybe just a dumb-fuck) was just to lose the pageant (I’m not clear whether her answer affected any of the other judges; maybe she even only lost his one vote.) and that didn’t involve criminal or civil penalties.
Should she have been called a bitch for being a bigot? Well, notwithstanding the sexist problems with calling women bitches, yeah, pretty much. Remember, content matters. What her glitzy answer boiled down to was “No, homosexuals shouldn’t have equal civil rights.”. Remember, this is the US; we’re not debating whether civil unions should take the term marriage back from the religionists who stole it and are maligning the history of marriage with their bullshit. We’re debating whether to actually provide equal opportunity and protection of law to all of our citizens.
Should the particular judge have called her a bitch? I have no idea. That’s an ethical matter, and ethics differs between professions. I have no idea what the ethical standards of pageant judges are. If they’re like lawyers’, he needs to be fired. If they’re like papparazzi’s ethics, he seems to be doing his job. Do you know which apply? I don’t.
#14 by Big U at April 26th, 2009
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Watch this and tell me who sounds less tolerant. The beauty queeen or the gay activist? Keep in mind that as a representative of the State of California which just had the prop 8 vote, her answer could also have been seen as representing her state.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teNsm3s0bkU&feature=related
Also, it’s interesting how Obama holds the same personal view but is not vilified for it. Why is that?
#15 by Dan M. at April 26th, 2009
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Before I watch this, answer me a couple questions:
Is it okay to be intoleant of bad things? For example, is it okay to vilify murderers?
Is equal protection under the law a bad thing?
Is advocating unequal protection under the law a bad thing?
What are the two parties intolerant OF?
#16 by Dan M. at April 26th, 2009
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On a separate note: Dude, stop watching “main-stream media” “news commentary”; that shit’ll rot your brain.
Anyway, that whole clip only had a few seconds of Hilton speaking. I’m not sure one can guess how tolerant he may or may not be. He’s certainly a hell of a lot less civil than Prejean was.
Of course, civility has a long history of being made an accomplice of social injustice. It’s never been polite to point out when somebody is supporting bigotry. And strangely, denying the rights of others doesn’t have the same impoliteness attached to it. Why that is is left as an exercise for the reader.
p.s. One more thing. To harken back to the discussion thread about torture, how exactly would Hilton being intolerant make Prejean’s bigotry more acceptible?
#17 by Big U at April 26th, 2009
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Is it okay to be intolerant of bad things? Yes.
Is equal protection under the law a bad thing? No.
Is advocating unequal protection under the law a bad thing? Very much depends on what is being advocated.
What are the two parties intolerant of? In this case Miss California is not intolerant of anyhing. In fact she goes so far as to say it is good that same sex couples have the choice. Hilton is intolerant of someone having an opinion he disagrees with.
Now let me ask you two questions:
1. in your mind, does being equal equate to being identical?
2. Is Obama intolerant of gays? And would you accept the same comments directed at him?
#18 by Dan M. at April 26th, 2009
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Is advocating unequal protection under the law a bad thing? Very much depends on what is being advocated.
Really?? Maybe we’re not talking about the same thing. I’m asking if it’s ever okay for one person to have a legal ability that another doesn’t when the two people are taking the same action but differ from one another in some feature unrelated to the action.
(1) Unfortunately “being equal” is a pretty ambiguous phrase. ”
#19 by Dan M. at April 26th, 2009
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Is advocating unequal protection under the law a bad thing? Very much depends on what is being advocated.
Really?? Maybe we’re not talking about the same thing. I’m asking if it’s ever okay for one person to have a legal ability that another doesn’t when the two people are taking the same action but differ from one another in some feature unrelated to the action.
(1) Unfortunately “being equal” is a pretty ambiguous phrase. What does it mean for two things to be equal but not identical? It means they can replace one another when either in combined with a larger parcel and the value of the whole parcel is the same whichever is added. On the other hand, two things being identical is them being indistinguishable regardless of use.
I’ve been talking about having equal civil rights. Having different (non-identical) civil rights depending who you are is not having civil rights, so in the case of civil rights, equality is the same as identity, because different civil rights are largely mutually incomparable.
Does being equal before the law require being identical? Of course not. But it does require the law not being able to tell a difference. It’s that whole blind justice thing.
(2) I don’t know if Obama is intolerant of gays. What I do know is that his stated position is however bigotted against them. Here’s the thing, though. Obama is a politician; he success at getting anything done is strictly circumscribed by his ability to cooperate with others. It may be best for him to pay lip service to one kind of bigotry so that he can achieve some other goals. Does that same consideration apply to Miss California? Who exactly does she need to appease with taking the pro-bigotry stance?
Do I think Obama is wrong to speak against heterosexual marriage? Yes. Is that wrongness mitigated by his speaking in favor of civil unions? Yeah, some. Was there an alternative choice who actually was for civil rights? Not that I know of.
Yeah, it’s conceivable that Prejean was in favor of civil unions instead of marriage for homosexuals. Do you have anything to indicate that’s actually the case, instead of her just being against homosexuals having any such options? So, yeah, maybe she’s no worse that Obama. I don’t suppose we know whether her opponents actually provided an alternative to segregation? (Even presuming that she wasn’t just against gays having civil rights at all.)
#20 by Dan M. at April 26th, 2009
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Excuse my partial double post. My cat stood on my keyboard.
#21 by Big U at April 26th, 2009
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Well if you are speaking of “civil rights” explain to me how the use of the word marriage instead of civil union would have to affect civil rights?
As far as unequal protection under the law, I cite the following as an example of treating people differently under the law:
affirmative action
#22 by digglahhh at April 27th, 2009
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Actually, “affirmative action” was put in place as redress to not just unequal protections under the law, but then, de facto unequal protections in spite of laws dictating otherwise.
It also doesn’t treat people differently in any meaningful way, as it doesn’t force anybody to accept/hire anybody who is less qualified than anybody else.
I’m not going to get into a whole affirmative action discussion, unless the discussion moves there naturally. But, I will repeat my party line - white people’s benefit from centuries of “affirmative action” >>>>>>> college application process, SAT score - tie goes to non-white guy.